Proposal talk:Marine rescue

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As part of the suggested change of Emergency stations, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rescue_Stations the two existing tags of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dcoast_guard & https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcoast_guard should both be deprecated, & replaced respectingly with military=coast-guard & rescue=marine_rescue tags.

Coast Guard is an awkward tag to use, & has the potential to cause a lot of confusion, as it means very different things in different countries, ranging from an armed military force (that also has a rescue function), to a strictly volunteer Marine Rescue unit, with no official powers of any sort.

Any “armed” Coast Guard base should be re-tagged to become landuse=military + military=coast_guard. Defined as: A base for the military / para-military force intended for protection of a country's coastal waters against such threats as enemy military forces, smugglers, terrorists etc, & which usually also has a marine rescue function. eg United States Coast Guard, Australian Border Force (& others).

Eg landuse=military + military=coast_guard + name=USCG Station Emerald Isle + operator=United State Coast Guard https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/424350279

* Following comments made on the Tagging list re military bases, I have just raised another proposal https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Military_bases. If successful, that proposal would also effect this one in that Military Coast Guard bases would then become landuse=military + military=base + base=coast_guard. --Fizzie41 (talk) 00:08, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

This would render as the standard pink, hatched, military landuse area.

The unarmed, strictly Marine Rescue units should then come under the new emergency=rescue_station heading as rescue=marine_rescue, defined as: A base for a group, sometimes Government operated, but also frequently volunteer only, dedicated to the rescue of vessels / sailors at sea eg British RNLI, USCG Auxilliary, Australian Volunteer Coast Guard, Volunteer Marine Rescue (& others).

Eg: emergency=rescue_station + rescue=marine_rescue + name=Marine Rescue Currumbin + operator=Marine Rescue Queensland etc

  • From discussions on the tagging list, it has been suggested that it would be better to tag them as emergency=marine_rescue, but still kept under the emergency=rescue_station heading. --Fizzie41 (talk) 22:15, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

There are currently only ~25 x emergency=coast_guard & ~150 x amenity=coast_guard in use so not a huge task to go through them & re-tag appropriately, however there are a lot more Rescue bases that could be tagged with over 300 in Australia alone!

Coastguard Station is also listed under Seamark Objects as:

Coastguard station CGUSTA

coastguard_station

Watch keeping stations at which a watch is kept either continuously, or at certain times only.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seamarks/Seamark_Objects

I don’t know if any change can, or needs to be made there, as it’s a completely different definition?

Move page to Proposed_features/Marine_rescue?

I recommend moving this page to Proposed_features/Marine_rescue because this is a proposal, and normally proposals are under the Proposed_features heading. See Proposal_process#Creating_a_proposal_page --Jeisenbe (talk) 06:16, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Please add taginfo comparisons

Thanks for proposing military=coast_guard. This is sorely needed, as a step towards fully populating military=*. For example, there is currently no way to tag branch of service distinctions for bases. We have a tag for Navy bases, but not Army or Air Force bases, which doesn't make much sense! So I support adding Coast Guard as a logical step towards that end.

It would be helpful if you could include taginfo comparisons for new/deprecated tag, so that the community is aware of how frequently used the deprecated tagging is, and whether the new tagging has any existing usage. For example:

Proposed deprecated tags
emergency=coast_guard amenity=coast_guard
Proposed new tags
military=coast_guard rescue=marine_rescue

--ZeLonewolf (talk) 15:48, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

  • Thank you for that - copied across to the main page. --Fizzie41 (talk) 22:15, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Coastguard are not (necessarily) military

The UK Coastguard agency is not a military body. This proposal therefore suggests incorrect mapping. SK53 (talk) 22:16, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but why do you suggest it's incorrect? From the descriptions above:
"Coast Guard is an awkward tag to use, & has the potential to cause a lot of confusion, as it means very different things in different countries, ranging from an armed military force (that also has a rescue function), to a strictly volunteer Marine Rescue unit, with no official powers of any sort.
Any “armed” Coast Guard base should be re-tagged to become landuse=military + military=coast_guard. Defined as: A base for the military / para-military force intended for protection of a country's coastal waters against such threats as enemy military forces, smugglers, terrorists etc, & which usually also has a marine rescue function. eg United States Coast Guard, Australian Border Force (& others).
The unarmed, strictly Marine Rescue units should then come under the new emergency=rescue_station heading as rescue=marine_rescue, defined as: A base for a group, sometimes Government operated, but also frequently volunteer only, dedicated to the rescue of vessels / sailors at sea eg British RNLI, USCG Auxilliary, Australian Volunteer Coast Guard, Volunteer Marine Rescue (& others)."
Is there anything further that you think needs to be added? --Fizzie41 (talk) 23:40, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
The case is the same in the Philippines, where the Coast Guard is a civilian agency under the transportation ministry, and a landuse=military tag is inappropriate --GOwin (talk) 01:20, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't see your comment. In that case, it would come under emergency=marine_rescue - would that be appropriate?
--Fizzie41 (talk) 04:22, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

This proposal vs Proposed_features/Military_bases

I would think that Proposed_features/Military_bases should get voted on first before this one moves forward. military=coast_guard has a key collision with military=base; it seems like these schemes are not compatible? --ZeLonewolf (talk) 03:46, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I had thought about, but I think it would be OK, regardless? If we say that military=base doesn't get through, this one will still apply in that the various tags would be deprecated, & military=coast_guard will come in. If military=base is approved, I think it would be OK to then simply adapt this from military=coast_guard to match the military=base + military_service=coast_guard layout? Or would that then have to go through another round of proposals etc? --Fizzie41 (talk) 04:21, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I was under the impression that military=base would make this proposal OBE. We shouldn't rush proposals forward merely because it's been two weeks since the RFC started, most especially since this one has a dependency on that one. Two weeks is simply the minimum waiting period, not an automatic trigger to start a vote. It seems like there is good support for military=base, and given that, this proposal muddies the waters IMO by offering an alternate scheme. I would rather see military=base go into a vote first, while this one gets modified to be consistent with the military=base scheme. It's not clear to me whether military=base "solves" what this proposal is going after or whether there is additional marine rescue tagging that will still be needed after military=base gets approved. --ZeLonewolf (talk) 04:50, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. Voting now postponed & returned to Proposal only. Sorry for the confusion! --Fizzie41 (talk) 05:01, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Rendering

It is likely that one person will state that it is inappropriate for this proposal to require a specific rendering or that it be rendered at all. So either remove that section (if you want to make it more likely that the person will vote yes rather than abstain) or put it in the subjunctive mode (change the heading to "Suggested rendering" and say that "renderers could..."). --Brian de Ford (talk) 12:40, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Proposals don't make renderers or editors do anything. Rendering suggestions in a proposal are just that - suggestions. Carto is only one of many renders, and Carto will not begin rendering something merely because there has been a tagging proposal. Let's be clear about what a proposal does -- it determines what goes on the wiki. Now, what goes on the wiki does strongly influence renderers, editors, and mappers. But, this distinction should not be mixed up. --ZeLonewolf (talk) 13:47, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

amenity/emergency=lifeboat_station

Hi,

both tags mentioned in the title are currently used to mark objects that you intend to tag with emergency=marine_rescue. I wouldn't say that there's already a clear concensus and I'd definitely prefer something in the emergency=* namespace, but I think these tags obviously need to be considered in this proposal.--TOGA (talk) 19:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Problem being that both of those tags are completely undefined, &, from the places that I've looked at, almost invariably both amenity= & emergency= tags are used together on the same feature. I also have concerns about using "lifeboat" as an overall tag, because, TBMK, the term "lifeboat" for a shore-based rescue unit is only used in the UK ie RNLI? --Fizzie41 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Judging from Wikipedia this seems to be a common term also in the US. Even the USCG itself calls it "motor life boat", although they can't seem to decide if they want to put a space between "life" and "boat" or not. Anyway, my main goal was just to make you aware that these tags exist and if you're going forward with this proposal you probably need to list them under deprecated tags. At the moment I don't necessarily have a strong opinion which value is better, I even can see some advantages with emergency=marine_rescue which maybe could also be applied to SAR helicopter stations?--TOGA (talk) 18:36, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Yep, well & truly aware of them, thanks! If you have a look at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Rescue_Stations, there's quite an extensive discussion taken/ing place. --Fizzie41 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Marine vs. Inland wates

The proposal seems to focus on marine wates, i.e. the open sea. What about inland wates, such as rivers and lakes?

Does a station have to be close to the coast or lake boundary?
I have a station to tag here where the water rescue services have their vehicles and diving equipment, being responsible for various inland water bodies in the city, but there is no lifeguard sitting on a tower.

Further, the image https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:RNLI_Boat_E-09_(14146438314).jpg shows a boat, not a station.

(Preceding comment added by user "Polarbear_w" 20 Oct 2022)

Thanks for your comment & nudging me to re-examine this proposal! I'll get back to this in the next week or so, but at this istage, I think it will be best to cancel this proposal & include it under emergency=lifeboat_station --Fizzie41 (talk) 03:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Not sure if that is ideal, as it implies the presence of a boat. Not all water rescue related infrastructure has a boat, and not all is located directly at the coast line or river bank. Maybe emergency=water_rescue? --Polarbear w (talk) 21:52, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, marine-rescue / lifeboat-station does imply use of a boat, as they are primarily involved in "the saving of life at sea" (borrowing from at least one motto). Safety / rescue of swimmers at a beach or similar location, is usually the responsibilty of lifeguards, although both groups can, & do, cross-over on occasion.
In regard to coastal v inland waters, this can be covered by definition as previously mentioned: "The emergency=marine_rescue tag is intended to tag the base areas or buildings of groups, sometimes Government operated, but also frequently volunteer only, dedicated to the rescue of vessels / sailors in distress, usually in Open or Coastal waters, but also possibly in inland waters. They may also be involved in rescue operations on coastal cliffs, mud flats etc." --Fizzie41 (talk) 22:12, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
The thinking is too narrow here. E.g. we have a service here, called Wasserwacht (water guards) that would be alerted if someone involuntarily falls into the river. Thus they do not observe a particular beach as a lifeguards. They will come with the equipment necessary for the particular situation, which is not always a boat but might be divers. A boat is useless if someone breaks into ice. Thus they are neither marine, nor a lifeboat_station, nor a lifeguards. "water_rescue" would still fit as a top-level tag. --Polarbear w (talk) 22:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Possible merger of similar tags

Discussion has started re possible merger of three similar tags, emergency=lifeboat_station, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Marine_rescue, & amenity=lifeboat_station.

Please see https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-November/066335.html or https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/possible-merge-of-marine-rescue-lifeboat-station-tags/5054.

All input & comments welcome!

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