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'{{Proposal page |name = Grab rails |user = Pietervdvn |key = grab_rail:left; grab_rail:right; grab_rail:behind |value = horizontal_wall_mounted;vertical_wall_mounted;diagonal_wall_mounted;foldable;armrest |type = node,area |definition = A grab rail is a support to help wheelchair users to transfer from their wheelchair onto the toilet |appearance = <!-- A possible rendering, if relevant - optional --> |status = Rfc |draftStartDate = 2025-03-14 |rfcStartDate = 2025-03-14 |voteStartDate = 2025-03-29 |voteEndDate = <!-- Date voting will end: at least 2 weeks after start of voting, YYY-MM-DD format --> }} == Proposal and rationale== Some wheelchair users are dependent on grab rails and other supports to move from their wheelchair onto the toilet. Some of them have a strong preference or need for this grab rail to be on a certain side of the toilet (e.g. someone who is paralyzed in their right arm will need the support to be on the left). For others, certain types of support are harder then others. === Why not handrail === The term '''handrail''' is associated mostly with steps, ramps and elevators. A '''grab rail''' is the proper UK-english noun for this type of object. It is widely used within the disability community, but is also used in the official documentation such as the building codex. American English uses '''grab bar''' as common term; but as [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#How_to_name_new_tags the OpenStreetMap project prefers British English] we settled for grab_rail. == Tagging == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Image !! tag !! Explanation |- | [[File:Grab_rail_horizontal_wall_mounted.jpg|thumb]] || {{Tag|grab_rail:<right/left>|horizontal_wall_mounted}} || A wall-mounted grab rail in a horizontal position (or which has a horizontal part). |- | || {{Tag|grab_rail:<right/left>|vertical_wall_mounted}} || A wall-mounted grab rail in a vertical position (or which has a vertical part). |- | [[File:Grab rail diagonal wall mounted.jpg|thumb]] || {{Tag|grab_rail:<right/left>|diagonal_wall_mounted}} || A wall-mounted grab rail in a diagonal position (or which has a diagonal part). |- | [[File:Grab_rail_wall_mounted_90.jpeg|thumb]] || {{Tag|grab_rail:<right/left>|horizontal_wall_mounted;vertical_wall_mounted}} || A wall-mounted grab rail with both a horizontal and vertical part; or two wall mounts of which one is horizontal and one is vertical |- | [[File:Grab_rail_foldable.jpeg|thumb]] || {{Tag|grab_rail:<right/left>|foldable}} || A foldable wall mount, also known as drop-down grab bar or drop down grab rail |- | || {{Tag|grab_rail:<right/left>|no}} || There is no grab rail on this side |} Both sides are considered separately. If there are multiple grab rails on one side, they are combined with a semicolon. '''Left''' and '''right''' are interpreted when sitting on the toilet. In some cases, there are also grab rails ''behind'' the toilet. In this case, {{Key|grab_rail:behind}} is used. The default assumption is {{Key|grab_rail:behind|no}} === What about armrests? === Some toilets have armrests. See the proposal [[Proposal:Armrests_on_toilets|here]] === What about urinals? === This proposal is specifically about sitting toilets. Urinals with grab rails exist; and there might be a urinal in the wheelchair dedicated toilet. However, if there is both a urinal and a sitting toilet in the wheelchair dedicated toilet, this tagging is about the sitting-toilet. A future proposal might deal with urinals. === Using prefixes === {{Key|grab_rail:<left/right>}} will be used on {{Tag|amenity|toilets}} if all the toilets of the cluster are dedicated to wheelchair users or if all the toilets have an identical grab rail setup. This will probably be the case if there is only a single toilet. Note that a toilet might have a grab rail, but might not be designated as "wheelchair accessible" and/or might not meet the (legal) requirement to meet {{Tag|wheelchair|yes}} - hence usage ''without'' wheelchair-suffix can occur. {{Key|toilets:wheelchair:grab_rail:<left/right>}} will be used if this grabrail setup is found in the wheelchair-designated toilet. Practically, >90% of the grab-rail usage will thus be with this prefix. We recommend in being explicit and marking left and right separately, even if they are identical. <code>:both</code> means that the grabrail setup is identical on both sides. Using {{Key|grab_rail}} without left/right is semantically unclear: it might mean that the described setup is on both sides of the toilet or that it is on only a single side of the toilet. This is considered coarse information and we strongly prefer the above tagging. == Examples == <gallery> File:Wheelchair_Accessible_toilet_0.jpeg| This toilet would be tagged with {{Tag|grab_rail:right|horizontal_wall_mounted}} and {{Tag|grab_rail:left|foldable}} File:Wheelchair_accessible_toilet6.jpeg| {{Tag|grab_rail:right|foldable}} but {{Tag|grab_rail:left|no}} File:Wheelchair_accessible_toilet4.jpeg| {{Tag|grab_rail:left|horizontal_wall_mounted;vertical_wall_mounted}} ; {{Tag|grab_rail:right|foldable}} ; {{Tag|grab_rail:behind|horizontal_wall_mounted}} </gallery> ==Features/Pages affected== * [[Key:toilets:wheelchair:grab rails]] * [[Wheelchair accessible toilets]] ==External discussions== [https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/rfc-tagging-proposal-for-grab-rails-in-wheelchair-accessible-toilets/127352/36 forum discussion] ==Comments== <!-- There must be at least 2 weeks set aside for comment on the proposal. Do not go to a vote without addressing the comments and fixing any problems with the proposal. The wiki talk page is used for comments, it is linked from the proposal page for those unfamiliar with wikis. --> Please comment on the [[{{TALKPAGENAME}}|discussion page]]. == Voting == {{Proposed feature voting}} <!-- Cheat sheet: {{vote|yes}} OPTIONAL MESSAGE HERE --~~~~ {{vote|no}} YOUR REASONS HERE --~~~~ {{vote|abstain}} YOUR COMMENTS HERE --~~~~ Place your vote below, at the end of the list. --> {{vote|yes}} --[[User:Pietervdvn|Pietervdvn]] ([[User talk:Pietervdvn|talk]]) 01:19, 29 March 2025 (UTC) {{vote|yes}} --[[User:Sunset Sakura|Sunset Sakura]] ([[User talk:Sunset Sakura|talk]]) 09:02, 29 March 2025 (UTC){{vote|yes}} --[[User:Djsa|Djsa]] ([[User talk:Djsa|talk]]) 18:02, 29 March 2025 (UTC) {{vote|yes}} --[[User:Trainsgender|Trainsgender]] ([[User talk:Trainsgender|talk]]) 16:50, 30 March 2025 (UTC) {{vote|no}} none of my concerns on the [https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/rfc-tagging-proposal-for-grab-rails-in-wheelchair-accessible-toilets/127352 community forum] has been addressed and when attempts were made to discuss feedback was written off. — [[User:GA Kevin|GA Kevin]] ([[User talk:GA Kevin|talk]]) 23:22, 4 April 2025 (UTC) {{vote|no}} I think this is far too far mapping of details. Toilets are usually labeled as simply amenity=toilets, without any details. No one will need such microscopic details. We create a map. What's next - the color of the toilet tiles? The forests of Canada are waiting to be mapped. In addition, a poorly filled proposal: no voting status, no voting end date. [[User:Maro21|maro21]] 14:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC) {{vote|no}} A defined tagging scheme for features of accessible toilets is definitely a good thing. This proposal is too specific though. If we map grab rails, we should be able to add them to all kind of accessible infrastructure, not only on toilets. E.g. on sinks and public showers. How to tag them if all three are present in a single place? The proposal also fails to address the existing tagging using {{tag|toilets:wheelchair:grab_rails}}. --[[User:Mueschel|Mueschel]] ([[User talk:Mueschel|talk]]) 13:35, 13 April 2025 (UTC) {{vote|no}} Reasons are given above --[[User:Söm4324|Söm4324]] ([[User talk:Söm4324|talk]]) 17:08, 13 April 2025 (UTC) {{vote|no}} Too specific and confusing with the keys armrest and handrail. Additionally we are voting although the proposal is not even in voting status. --[[User:Computae|Computae]] ([[User talk:Computae|talk]]) 17:45, 13 April 2025 (UTC) {{vote|abstain}} I don't wish to deny anyone a certain tagging of physical reality on the ground, the core principle of OSM, but I agree with the critical arguments mentioned before so I abstain --[[User:Hike&#38;Map|Hike&#38;Map]] ([[User talk:Hike&#38;Map|talk]]) 11:09, 14 April 2025 (UTC) {{vote|no}} The proposal is rather too specific. It risks being a failed tag because it requires wikipedia level editing hyper-skills. I'm highly sympathetic to the problems of movement constrained people and even more so to those with paruresis so mapping toilets is always, always good. BUT...I'd want to encourage fast simple solutions that help those in need but are quick and easy for our less skilled (majority) mappers. As the advice says, Keep It Simple. So '''grab_rails=yes''' is not a problem. '''grab_rails=chrome''' and '''=wood''' and '''=slant''' and '''=left''' and '''=right''' and '''=folding''' and '''=firm''' and '''=slightly_loose''' and '''=positively_dangerous''' and '''abandoned:grab_rails=Yes''' are too much. --[[User:CRaIgalLAn|CRaIgalLAn]] ([[User talk:CRaIgalLAn|talk]]) 14:35, 14 April 2025 (UTC) {{vote|no}} This looks a bit too detailed to me. But if it becomes widespread anyway, I support a revote. —[[User:Gymate|Gymate]] ([[User talk:Gymate|talk]]) 04:37, 15 April 2025 (UTC)'