Talk:Key:local ref

Just use ref

I suggest to change this chapter name to "Just use ref for identifier and local_ref for stop number".

Why doesn't using the existing, more poular, pre dating 'ref:' tag work? Is this another case of those who propsed PTv2 creating a new tag just to be different? --DaveF63 (talk) 22:43, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

~20% of local_ref=* and ~48% of loc_ref=* are used together with ref=*. They are clearly different. One may want to keep tagging of reference within a feature consistent. --0- Kovposch (talk) 09:53, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Ref is a unique stop number and local_ref is a platform number. Example

Here you have a stop 334557363 334557363 with ref=704202 and local_ref=02. maro21 21:08, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Where do you see the number "704202" in that picture? Why is it necessary to tag a reference number for the "stop" and the "platform" on the same feature? --Jeisenbe (talk) 06:07, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

It seems that node never had local_ref=02 at the time you wrote that comment. Instead it does have 02 in the name. The stop on the opposite side of the road is Foksal 01. Does the bus operator really deference these stops as "Foksal 01" and "Foksal 02" in its maps and timetables? Or does it just write "Foksal"? This could be a case for name=Foksal on both stops and differentiating them with local_ref=01 and 02. It is similar on big bus stations where all the platforms have the same name (the name of the station) and the platforms are numbered. In PTv2 the name of the platform should be the name of the stop (thus the station), not the number of the platform (like name=1). Thus platform number goes into the local_ref on those platforms. Otherwise you would get a non-sensical list of bus stops on e.g. a Flixbus route reading e.g.: 5,7,9,1,3 (meaning platform numbers on particular bus stations), but you wouldn't see the name of the stop or even the town. You can be sure that the bus operator does list the proper stop name in the timetable (less likely the platform as just an additional information). I'd agree with the interpretation that 'ref' would be for some more global stop reference number, e.g. a unique number of stop in the city or of that particular operator. Yes, ref:<operator> could also be used, but needless if there is only one operator. Aceman444 (talk) 20:51, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I just checked the data, and most features with this tag do not have a ref=* tag (only 19%), but most have a name tag (97%). Often the local_ref and name are the same, or sometimes the local_ref is just part of the name. It seems this tag is almost always redundant with the name=* or ref=*. Also the page text is misleading: this tag is mostly used on highway=bus_stop features, not on public_transport=stop_position. --Jeisenbe (talk) 06:16, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I know what you mean. But I used local_ref also for another situation. This bus stop: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/768944600 has an "internal" ref, given by the operater and its only internal. The ref=* tagged is seeable at the location, but it is written very small. The local_ref is the actual number of the platform and is written much bigger. Unfortunately, I have no photo at the moment. The operator-given refs do actually all bus stops in this city have, and the are lookable, but not tagged at all because they are so small and not very useful. But even though, the bus stop does have two refs. One from the operator and one to number the bus stop position. I used ref=* for the internal one, because I didn't want to make a new key like "ref:WSW" or something. But I also didn't want to tag the internal ref not, because you can see it there. But how to work with these situations?--Lukas458 (talk) 10:53, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Re: "I didn't want to make a new key like "ref:WSW" or something." That solution sounds perfect, though. The main "ref=" tag should be the one that is prominently posted and known by the general public, while tags like "ref:ABC" are often used for internal reference numbers which are only important for internal use. --Jeisenbe (talk) 17:34, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

This tag blankets whole Europe as a stop number. "ref" is normally used for long identifier but transport databases contains also a short identifier which is more useful and easier to remember. This short number is also used in most popular urban transport applications. Check this in overpass-turbo.eu ["local_ref"~"A|B|C|1|2|3"]. Example bus stop: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4335780401. We've just started to use this tag for applications for blind. These applications read every object around blind person according to GPS position. It's better to hear "A" instead of "91569".

User:Jeisenbe said:

Often the local_ref and name are the same, or sometimes the local_ref is just part of the name. It seems this tag is almost always redundant with the name=* or ref=*.

That is true so local_ref should only be used when stop number hasn't been placed in name or ref. It should be used only when ref is long identifier and thre is no conventiont to use stop number in name tag. --Luktar (talk) 22:57, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Luktar: What is the source of this short "A" in the example you give? "ref:WSW" or something." is a better solution.--DaveF63 (talk) 14:11, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@DaveF63: It's London.--Luktar (talk) 08:21, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@Luktar: That doesn't answer my question. What is the source of your additions?--DaveF63 (talk) 13:53, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@DaveF63: This discussion with comminity https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=65654&p=4, contact with blind persons, knowledge about how applications for blind people works and personal 3+ years experience in this topic. I hope it answers your question. --Luktar (talk) 14:55, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@Luktar: That still doesn't answer my question.

1. That's in polish. This forum is in English

2. Which "transport database" classifies the stops as 'A' etc or are you just making it up & hijacking an existing tag?

3. Who is the "we" you mention in your reply on the 13 January?

4. Refs are meant to be unique to the authority responsible for administering the bus stop. Using a short, single letter won't do that.

@DaveF63:

1. You can automatically translate the page. The last post explains all concept.

2. Almost all. I sent you London example. It's a GTFS standard https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Transit_Feed_Specification. Besides local_ref is commonly used for this purpose. It's not my idea. Check taginfo: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/local_ref#values

3. We are an organization which is helping blind people by using technologies. Read more about us on this page: https://rozwiazaniadlaniewidomych.org/. It's in Polish but automatic translation should be enough. I'll translate it when we'll scale up to other countries. Maybe Q3 or Q4 2022.

4. That's why we are using ref as unique stop identifier and local_ref as easy to read stop code. It's better for blind person to hear "1" instead of "12345678". Why do you think that I want to use single number or letter in ref tag? --Luktar (talk) 22:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)