Talk:Key:proposed

Multiple plans can create a mess?

If two people submit plans which are "nearly but not quite the same", then anyone rendering planned=primary will see both possibilities overlaid on the same map.

So for example, if two designers have differing ideas about exactly where a roundabout should be, then your map might have a load of overlapping roundabouts looking like the olympic rings with a tangle of roads attached, and no way to tell what's what.

Surely the tag would need to say which specific plan this object is part of, rather than by "all possible plans". Then you can generate different maps showing each plan. So tags more like "planned:bedford_council_bypass_proposal_A_2008-10-10=primary" than "planned=primary". Ojw 08:25, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

What about using (in that example) operator=bedword_council and plan_ref=A_2008-10-10 if each plan uses separate ways? Alv 09:04, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree there should be subtags for the source. What about source=* ? --Dieterdreist 19:02, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Separating plans might be done on a relation level, so that several plans can use the same ways. Also a discarded=* can be of interest to eliminate discarded plans. --Skippern 21:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm using proposed only where the land is already owned by the government, and thus, barring major replanning, the alignment is definite. --NE2 17:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes. If there are multiple competing proposals, then that seems like quite an early stage of planning.

I would suggest that the data doesn't belong in OpenStreetMap when something is at a woolly and indeterminate stage of planning (where there are multiple different plans) You should wait until a proposed development is more settled/finalised. Otherwise we're mapping ideas which are not very close to any kind of reality. It's not verifiable

-- Harry Wood (talk) 14:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

key:proposed for a route or a route member?

Sometimes cycle route lack some cycleway part wich, but you can use the main road to link them. This part without cycleway are not officially part of the cycle route, but will be soon, when the roadwork will be done. Tag this cycler oute part as proposed could help to understand a cycle network under construction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yoko99 (talk • contribs) 07:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

bridge=proposed?

Hi, I wonder how to set key:bridge for a proposed bridge (road or railway).

Version 1: highway=proposed; proposed=motorway; bridge=yes

Version 2: highway=proposed; proposed=motorway; bridge=proposed

Any opinions? Any experience with rendering? (Please also see: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/14666156).

--NachtSpazz 21:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Verifiable?

Following on from the above point, there's a general verifiability issue with this whole tagging scheme. I think I'm in support of removing it from the rendering because it's problematic

We have a warning on the page which goes some way to explaining things: "Note that generally, OpenStreetMap requires information to be verifiable on the ground. Proposed features that are not visible on the ground should therefore only be mapped in exceptional cases and after a discussion with the relevant OSM community, lest they might be deleted for lack of verifiability"

And I think that's good, but is there some way we can nail this down some more? In general I'm inclined to say that OpenStreetMap is not a database of woolly non-existent ideas. We map the real world. Things which really exist. It seems to me this whole tagging scheme is in breach of that principle.

On the flip-side I can see that major proposed constructions of roads are something people expect to see on maps. I think actually that's born out of what we get with road atlases, and with modern regularly updated digital maps, it becomes less necessary. I guess a compromise would be to apply some strict criteria for when a proposal is finalised enough to be regarded as verifiable (even though it still doesn't exist)

-- Harry Wood (talk) 14:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

This whole key goes against OSM's main rule: do not map elements which are not verifiable. Full Stop! I'm starting to see big chuncks of proposed tags that do not even get erased when clearly abandoned. In other words it's getting messy, useless data and time consuming for contributors. Let's clear this out!

--SHARCRASH (talk) 12:16, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

I think it's verifiable, for example:

there might be a preparation for it (like legal documents, cadastral surveys, expropriation of lands, etc.Mappinglander (talk) 15:06, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Not really. There are many projects officially planned but everyone knows that it is something that will not be done (Kraków has a "planned" tunnel that since 1970 will be build within 10 years) Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 10:12, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I too belive that planned projects are verifiable. But they exist on a gradient; from daydreamers seeking investment, to legally required announcements about upcoming construction. I don't belive the earlier part have any purpose on OSM. But the latter part do. Many prominent map-makers (e.g. the government Mapping and Land Registration Authority) show, clearly marked, planned roads and buildings – then leave it to the the user's own judgment. We never say that the road is there, just that it may be there. And when it eventually exist, a StreetComplete user can just mark it as "under construction" and ultimately "finished".

The problem here lies not in its existential right, but in "WHAT is a trustworthy source?"--Christoffre (talk) 22:41, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I have LOTS of experience with this tag, especially as it caused problems for national bicycle routes in the USA (before, and immediately after I gave a talk on the subject at State Of The Map-US in Washington, DC USA, April, 2014). One thing I have found that is a helpful consideration in the larger context is whether or not the project that is proposed is funded. A proposed project that IS funded is very likely going to begin construction and eventually be built. One that is not funded remains in a sort of limbo where it isn't as clear whether construction will or will not begin. I'm not saying to make "is it funded?" act as the be-all and end-all of whether or not proposed=* should or should not be used, but it can be a helpful checkpoint, if known. Stevea (talk) 22:38, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

This tag is not verifiable at all in my opinion. From the page, quoted, "The concept of verifiability in OpenStreetMap essentially means that another mapper should be able to come to the same place and collect the same data ("verify" the data you have entered)." Full stop. There is no way this key can be verifiable. At all. Ewrt1 (talk) 06:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

This tag is used where it is used. It has evolved with OSM. It is supported in some renderers. It is not going away. We have had similar discussions before. We have had similar "let's rip it all out, it is wrong and contradictory" before. I'm listening. I'm also saying there is a history across essentially the entirety of the project that is and might appear somewhat contradictory, yet is capable of describing what might roughly be described as "lifecycle." Again, it isn't going away, nor will the key be deprecated. Its usage is quite context-dependent. That's tough, but it is true. Positive constructive criticism and concrete proposals are welcome, but.... Stevea (talk) 06:11, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Also, "verifiable" doesn't necesssariliy mean "on the ground," say "if they haven't yet put up signs but you could ask the state transportation department for a route map and they could give you one" (and it would match what is in OSM). That's good enough for me, although I have been told that it is a stretch. Still, OSM allows this, if carefully and with some "rises high enough" criteria that a wider community agree to. See the rest of this page and our USBRS wiki about "rises high enough." It is a good example, and while wobbly at first, gained legs with my SOTM-US 2014 talk in Washington, DC as well as being bolstered by the AASHTO letter to OSM (-US) granting permission, which further legitimized routes in the network being added to OSM. To be clear: the verification (in this case) comes from a state transportation agency and the federal-level-blessed organization which literally "approves" the routes into existence. There are exact route data, and these (intentionally) match the data in OSM. The concept of "proposed" here MEANS "being entered until they are approved" (when all sense of being "proposed" is stripped off as a tag connoting proposed). Stevea (talk) 06:34, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Wet Paint becoming a Chalk Line: when does Proposed rise high enough to include in OSM?

I have held off for a long time entering this, but I feel it is time as I read Harry Wood's idea of "compromise." Harry says we might "apply some strict criteria for when a proposal is finalised enough to be regarded as verifiable (even though it still doesn't exist)." YES! This really IS a solution to OSM's use of "proposed."

I consider the question by my Subject/headline above to succinctly capture the idea. In it, "Wet Paint" is when a government body publishes a tangible plan to create/construct something (a new road project, a wider bridge, a bicycle route where one didn't exist before...). It is paint because it is official and promulgated to the public, but it is wet because it doesn't yet exist in the real world. It is, however, a fully-formed idea. It may even be as far as a bid, tangible construction plans, and/or crews working -- the important thing is that it WILL happen. It is not just an idea or a proposal, it is MORE than that. By "Chalk Line" I mean that the essence of this is captured in OSM, by what is usually rendered as a dashed line along the right-of-way of the project. (Something with the tag "proposed").

In our USBRS_WikiProject, much has been said about Proposed. What started out in OSM (circa 2011) as bold and highly inaccurate assertions of Proposed national bicycle routes, have become a highly tuned set of both Actual routes and Proposed routes, thanks to this project's lengthy conversations about "What makes something Proposed, anyway?" The results can be read at that wiki, but in short, it is that as national bicycle routes in the USBRS are asserted by states, state at a time, only when a state has a true "project" to create a USBR, one which is nearing its final step of completion of application to AASHTO (similar to how a state highway might be promoted to an Interstate highway, and by exactly the same organization) is when a route might be considered to be truly "a proposed route." We call this a "high bar standard."

Recently, OSM-US has asked AASHTO for specific permission to enter routing data into OSM which come directly from AASHTO's web site. These route data are in the form of a ballot from state Departments Of Transportation (DOTs): "Here is our route proposal, AASHTO..." and all AASHTO must do is approve it. (This is to assure specific protocols to achieve a national harmony are followed; indeed AASHTO has never disapproved any ballot, as all are widely vetted within the state of origin and promulgated by the DOT). AASHTO has tentatively given OSM this permission, OSM only awaits final paperwork. After this is received, OSM might say that we have a "very high bar standard" with which to enter a route proposal into our database: a ballot from a state DOT to AASHTO. To wit, this route actually IS approved by the People of the state of origin, AASHTO is simply "rubber-stamping" its inclusion into the national network. Hence, OSM might accurately characterize this entity while it is waiting for AASHTO approval as "proposed."

This can be extended to similar sorts of "official approval pending" or "official plans published" (wet paint) becoming some entity (a route, a road...) in OSM which is well-described as Proposed (chalk line) -- even down to the local level. It took a lot of discussion to get a "high bar standard" to emerge in the case of the USBRS, and it feels fortunate to have discovered what seems like a "very high bar standard." Without getting lost in a miasma of details about what the guidelines might be at every single local level, let us discuss this in the instant case (the USBRS and AASHTO having received a state ballot for a USBR as a "very high bar standard"). Thank you. --stevea 23:28, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Windparks?

How about proposed wind turbines? It's a lengthy process to get approval for them, some might get cancelled. Yet people would like to know were exactly they are supposed to be built. --MattGPS (talk) 18:00, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi Matt, I'm sure you meant "where exactly...". There may be some "ground work" (tagging) that can "sketch in" something like this. Maybe the particular patch of land upon which a particular turbine (or group of them) gets tagged landuse=industrial; that's a suggestion to ponder. Creating a node for a wind turbine and tagging it proposed=yes or state=proposed might be a useful thing to do, though it should be documented, say, in wiki, how high a bar is the standard at which this happenes...should be pretty late in the process before construction / operation. There is a trade-off of "effort involved" vs. "how useful are the data, in larger aggregates, to be 'useful' when presented in a geospatial method" (like a renderer that respects specifically different renderings when a flavor of a "proposed" tag is included). There's a fair number of moving parts to make the whole pipeline useful (and efficient so it isn't too much effort), as we don't want to "tag specifically for any given renderer" and yet, renderers often (not always) make our data quite specifically useful. Especially as they can be indicated by a node (bigger wind turbines can be more complex, housing an enclosed/building base tower, etc.), I could see "whispering" into OSM a node for a wind turbine that included a proposed tag being sensible and useful. Though I repeat, say specifically what the threshold is before you reach it making sense to do that (use a proposed tag), as it should be "late in the process" before construction / operation. Stevea (talk) 22:17, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Help, i can't find highway = proposed in OSM or JOSM

I was trying to tag that feature as highway=proposed, but i can't find it anywhere on search, edit feature menu, and more on OSM and JOSM. So you meant that this feature doesn't exist or something what guys? Anyways, can you help me find that tag please. Btrohe (talk) 14:54, 27 December 2023 (UTC)