Talk:Tag:amenity=bar

Regarding your removal of wikidata

Jeisenbe, could you please explain your removal in more detail? The wikidata entry also links to the bar entry in wikipedia. Do you know a better wikidata or wikipedia entry that we should link to? It is understood that some of the OSM tags can have a little extra meaning due to abbreviations, but due to the principle that tags should stand by themselves, it is not allowed to define a word to mean something completely different than the dictionary and encyclopedic meaning. -Bkil (talk) 11:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

(Remove |wikidata=Q187456 - not an exact match)

The tag "amenity=bar" has a fairly detailed decription in OpenStreetMap: "a purpose-built commercial establishment that sells alcoholic drinks to be consumed on the premises. They are characterised by a noisy and vibrant atmosphere, similar to a party. They usually do not sell food to be eaten as a meal. The music is usually loud and you often have to stand. Sometimes it has a dancefloor, but it's not the main attraction." - this is contrasted with a amenity=pub, amenity=nightclub, or amenity=cafe, and amenity=biergarten. But the wikidata concept is different, and not very precise: "establishment serving alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises" - that could also be an amenity=pub, an amenity=cafe, amenity=biergarten, etc, so it does not match. --Jeisenbe (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your reasons. Please observe the right side language links on the wikidata page. You can find that it is linked to the bar Wikipedia page that explains the term in more detail. On the Wikipedia page, please observe that on the left side you can find the very "Wikidata item" that we started with, so the link is bidirectional. Hence indeed amenity=bar is linked with w:bar. Note that sometimes OpenStreetMap terms might be slightly special compared to the respective encyclopedic definitions, but this is usually understood as refinement, reducing ambiguity between cultures or generalization. However, this difference should be minute, and I always find an acceptable level of fuzzy match with a given article if I look hard enough. You should also consider that mappers themselves label different things as "bars" and "pubs" around the world, and this basic description is only trying to convey a gist that people should interpret freely within their culture (for example, pubs in Hungary almost never serve food). Basically the definition was probably based on the UK section in the said wiki page that kind of aligns with it. Please do not try to make the definition any more specific than mappers are interpreting this around the world in real life. Based on these assumptions, could you please reconsider what wikidata item we could link to, or otherwise share some more insights about the context (perhaps some mailing list discussions or proposals that we could check out together)? -Bkil (talk) 00:38, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any added value in linking to Wikidata in this case. It is possible to link to a Wikipedia article in the proper language when this is helpful, but the fine distinctions between pub / bar / cafe / biergarten are not explained better at the Wikipedia articles in English. The wikidata item does not add anything. I would suggest that supporters of Wikidata have the burden of proof to explain why linking to wikidata is necessary, because in many cases it just makes the documentations more confusing. --Jeisenbe (talk) 06:21, 7 July 2020 (UTC)