Talk:Tag:emergency=lifeguard

Background

Following on from discussion that came up during the Rescue Station proposal:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Rescue_Stations

& https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-December/056605.html;

& as also previously discussed at

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-June/037080.html,

I would like to suggest making some changes to the Lifeguard pages.

Current discussions on the Tagging list may also be found at
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2021-January/058402.html

Current Tagging

We currently have 6 ways of mapping the location that a lifeguard may be found, 5 tags:

emergency=lifeguard
emergency=lifeguard_base
emergency=lifeguard_tower
emergency=lifeguard_platform
emergency=water_rescue_station

& also lifeguard=* as a simple yes/no, which can be added to such locations as swimming pools, water parks etc

None of these options have apparently ever been discussed, most of them have only minimal definitions, & are really only multiple ways of describing the same feature.

I would like to deprecate all except the first of these tags & merge them all together under emergency=lifeguard, which would then be used for all lifeguard facilities.

Incidentally, the current count of the "other" tags is only 1273, & from previous discussions & investigations in June 2018, a number of those can be expected to be mis-tagged.

lifeguard=* would however, also remain available for use as required, as it covers a different situation.
--Fizzie41 (talk) 04:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Distinguishing full scale emergency=water_rescue_station from emergency=lifeguard where there is just a single lifeguard sits is needed Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:36, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, once again, didn't see your comment. Why do you think it's needed? --Fizzie41 (talk) 02:41, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Comments moved to new section --Fizzie41 (talk) 01:27, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Note that OSM Wiki describes how tag are used. Is "man_made=tower + tower:type=observation + emergency=lifeguard" in any noticeable use? Or is it just proposed replacement for more popular emergency=lifeguard_tower? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm also quite skeptical about replacing emergency=lifeguard_tower with "man_made=tower + tower:type=observation + emergency=lifeguard" because these do not look like observation towers: a tower is much taller than it is wide. These are quite short. I wouldn't call them towers, and I haven't seen them tagged this way yet. --Jeisenbe (talk) 01:52, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I've only mentioned "man_made=tower" as an option, not compulsory. & yes, I know that they are in use that way because I've used them! :-), although I admit, not very many times. & once again, yes - I'm suggesting merging 5 not very frequently used tags into one that will then have almost 2500 uses! As regards to the photo, the towers I've added as examples are either the same size, or taller, than the sample on the emergency=lifeguard_tower page! --Fizzie41 (talk) 02:41, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Sure they the size of a "lifeguard tower", what I am disputing is whether they are the same as an observation tower, e.g: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tower:type%3Dobservation - also see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Observation_towers for examples: all are much taller and have a higher ratio of height to width. --Jeisenbe (talk) 04:19, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that a shift to man_made=tower seems counterproductive, on the contrary I believe we should make a transition the other way round, man_made=cooling_tower, man_made=observation_tower etc., because the different kind of towers are just too different to merit the same main tag, it only has disadvantages. There also is man_made=water_tower established. This said, a tower has generally to be higher than wide, but by shape I would think that lifeguard towers would meet this criterion. --Dieterdreist (talk) 10:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, I am not suggesting that the lifeguard tag be replaced by "tower", but that they both be used together to indicate that there is a lifeguard in this location & they will be in an observation tower --Fizzie41 (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

emergency=water_rescue_station

Earlier comments moved down to become separate topic

Distinguishing full scale emergency=water_rescue_station from emergency=lifeguard where there is just a single lifeguard sits is needed Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:36, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, once again, didn't see your comment. Why do you think it's needed? --Fizzie41 (talk) 02:41, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

This, undiscussed, tag, appears to be a direct translation of the German term "Wasserrettungsstation" which refers to one of the German branches of lifeguards. I had originally listed it as one of the tags to possibly be deprecated & merged to here, but that was deleted with the comment "this tag makes perfect sense".
Personally, I cannot see the sense of having 4 low usage tags to indicate 1 feature, when there is one already existing, which describes the same feature, with much higher use. If any of these tags had actually been discussed when they were created, I doubt we would have multiples! --Fizzie41 (talk) 01:10, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Tags used in combination

I've been attempting to also list an alt_name=Lifeguard Tower 20, but for some reason it's not appearing, although it's there when you look at Edit Source? Anybody got a solution? --Fizzie41 (talk) 01:14, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Please move proposed changes to proposal namespace

@Fizzie41: you are suggesting a number of changes to this page and deprecation of related tags. That should be discussed on a Proposal page or on the Talk page, but proposals are not put on the actual documentation pages themselves. Please move the new content in these changes to a proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aemergency%3Dlifeguard&type=revision&diff=2096392&oldid=1946284 --Jeisenbe (talk) 04:04, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Proposal content moved to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lifeguard --Jeisenbe (talk) 04:12, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you have me confused? This has been raised & discussed on the Tagging list: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2021-January/058402.htm, & my first question there was: "Not sure if this needs to be called an RFC, as it concerns existing tags only, although I am suggesting deprecating several?". To date, nobody has actually answered that question.

I don't think that I've actually yet made any actual proposals on this page, only added definitions & tagging info to an otherwise un-discussed, very bare page, then modified them following comments made?

Yes, I have discussed deprecating & merging the various other lifeguard & related pages, but that is still a discussion, not yet a proposal --Fizzie41 (talk) 05:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

This page, like others in the format "Tag:key=value", is for documenting how a tag is currently used. The recent edits added proposals, such as using lifeguard=tower. If you map a number of lifeguard towers and tag them lifeguard=tower + emergency=lifeguard, then it's fine to document that at Tag:lifeguard=tower and add a link to that tag here. But so far it has only been used 1 time: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=lifeguard%3Dtower so it's not something that is being used commonly enough to be added to this page. --Jeisenbe (talk) 04:27, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Proposal

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lifeguard#Proposal