Talk:Zartico

Creating Relation for Hotels with multiple buildings

We have been getting conflicting guidance on locations with multiple buildings. We initially labeled each building with the name of the hotel. We received feedback that was not correct and we should draw each building and then an area the encompasses the entire hotel area. We were told to label the areas with hotel information. This is consistent with information about defining a Campus for a hotel https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dhotel. When doing that, we moved the tags from the hotel building to the Area to be consistent with the "One feature, one OSM element." guidance. However, we received further guidance not to do that.

We want to label these correctly so here's what we plan to do: 1. Draw each building that belongs to the hotel. Label them with the Building tag. 2. If a building exist that already has the hotel tags, create an outer relation from that building. Copy the tags from the that building. 3. Add the hotel tags to the new relation 4. Add the new building(s) to the relation as outer

Here's an example of one we did using this method. https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/12851048

Feedback from the community is appreciated before we proceed.

--ECannon (talk) 14:43, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for describing your plans (including an example). The general idea matches my understanding of "best practices" but the example you gave has a mistake. The relation is great, but the eastern-most building has the same tags as the relation (duplicated). I'd remove all the tags on https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/954614439 (since they are already on the relation). Blackboxlogic (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback and calling out the duplicate information on the way and relation. I left it there on purpose because we seem to get a lot of feedback from the community for removing tags. I didn't want to mess anything else up by deleting tags off a building. --ECannon (talk) 18:24, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

As a result of your edit, there are now two separate, identical hotels. This is a critical, fundamental problem. It's important that you and your team can identify and resolve this type of situation. You may have gotten feedback about DELETING useful data. If your example edit had been done properly, you would have MOVED the data from one element to another, which is okay because the data still exists and accurately describes the element. If you link us to a changeset where you were scorned for moving tags from one element to another, we may be able to clarify that situation specifically. Blackboxlogic (talk) 21:17, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I was asked to comment here, so here's my 2-pennorth:

It's perfectly OK for the attributes of a hotel (including the main "tourism=hotel" tag) to be on a node, a way, or a relation. What works best in a particular scenario will vary, and to be honest most things that consume OSM data won't (and shouldn't) care if the thing they're navigating to, rendering, or otherwise processing is a node, a way or a relation. What's important is that (a) if there's only one hotel, there's only one thing tagged with "tourism=hotel" and the other hotel tags and (b) if tags are moved from one object to another that they aren't lost. If the thing tagged as a hotel is a building it should also have a building tag; if not, it shouldn't.

As an example, https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/95610861 is a hotel that I mapped as the whole area - it doesn't have a building tag. The many buildings inside were originally houses but are now part of the hotel. http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/268646917 is mapped as a node - that makes sense here because the building is actually shared by other businesses. https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8553523 is two buildings which together make up a hotel. Note that, as per what Blackboxlogic said above, the individual buildings don't have tags on them. Together they make up a multipolygon (see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:multipolygon ) which has all the tags, including building=yes.

For the avoidance of doubt, it's very common (and in my opinion perfectly valid) to just draw a building (if one does not yet exist) and leave the "tourism=hotel" and other tags on a node. An example in OSM where that has happened is https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/414085927 . Personally when I'm editing thins in OSM I try and minimise the work I have to do to get the "correct" result - and generally speaking that means making the fewest changes to existing objects.

For completeness, where was the change you referred to above where you said "However, we received further guidance not to do that."? Perhaps if you link to it here we can perhaps explain what the reason for the comment was? SomeoneElse (talk) 20:55, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Methodology

Please note that depending on the type of objects you plan to map, there might also be pre-existing ways or relations, not only nodes. Also, if you change from an existing node to a new way, please re-use that node in your new way to preserve the history. You would probably move existing tags from the node to your new way then. --Lyx (talk) 14:32, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Eddie Cannon Thanks for adding this methodology. We will ensure this is part of our updates.

Why are you copying data from nodes to building ways at all?

I don't understand how this improves the data in any way. SomeoneElse (talk) 08:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

One feature, one OSM element

We are following these standards: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#One_feature.2C_one_OSM_element

"An OSM element should represent a single on-the-ground feature once and only once. Don't place nodes in identically tagged areas just to see an icon appear in the editor. If you draw the area of an object that previously existed only as a node, remove the node or reuse it in the outline as described in Keep the history, then remove the tags from the node and add them to the area."

We were asked to stop removing the node after copying over the tag information. The guidance conflicts with One feature, one OSM element rule, and is now confusing given the guidance to only draw the building and not copy over the tags.

We are using the building to mark the Point of Interest (POI) as the building for that particular business. Those buildings and related tags are used to determine visitors for the destination. We can't do that with a node as it is just a point on the map. How can we know the building belongs to the business if we don't the label the building accurately? Is there a way to relate the Node information to the Way?

ECannon (talk) 14:20, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

If there is a node and you need a building way instead, the usual way to do this would be: move the existing node to one corner of the building, create the building way with that node as the first node, then move the tags from the original node to the way. As an end result, the original node still exists and still has its history, but no tags anymore, and the tags are now on the building way. --Lyx (talk) 15:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

This method becomes problematic when there is more than one POI in that building. The two commonly used methods are either to have all building related tags on the building way and have additional nodes for the individual POIs inside the building, or to do "indoor mapping" of which I know next to nothing, so you would have to ask someone else. If several POIs in the same building are related to each other, like e.g. a restaurant as part of a hotel, you can also tag the "encompassing feature" on the building way and the "sub feature" on an extra node inside. --Lyx (talk) 15:46, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm copying part of a message I sent to user 'Eddie Cannon' regarding change 103322869 to this talk page so it is public.

Lyx said: "... move the existing node to one corner of the building ..."

And here is an edit where your mapper literally moved the node near the corner of the building, but doesn't seem to understand what the problem is or how to fix it. Compare that to this example of the desired result. Lyx's advice (to COMBINE the elements) represents the community accepted, best practice but didn't have enough detail for your team. I'm hoping to help you achieve this by providing more detailed instructions.

The core issue with your edit is that there are now two hotels in osm. There is a node-hotel and a way-hotel, which doesn't match reality where there is only ONE hotel.

Lyx was suggesting you COMBINE the elements. If done correctly:

* The old node still exists but no loner has any tags

* The new way has all the tags (and more?) that the node had

* The old node is part of the new way

The iD editor (which some of your mappers are using) has a feature to do this for you. Select the node and the way (hold shift and click on each), then right click and click "combine" (or just push 'c', a keyboard shortcut). This will "merge" the tags also, saving you time manually moving them from the node to the way. Though you should review the tags after to make sure the result is correct.

Please ask if you have questions. It would be very good to get this right since your team is doing high-volume edits. I also request that your team review and fix your previous edits, which I can help you find if needed.

Thank you Blackboxlogic (talk) 15:09, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I've instructed the team to handle nodes to ways per the guidance from Blackboxlogic The iD editor has a feature merge a node and way. Select the node and the way (hold shift and click on each), then right click and click "combine" (or just push 'c', a keyboard shortcut). This will "merge" the tags. Review the tags after to make sure the result is correct. --ECannon (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Typo

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Zarticogreta does not exist on OSM. Maybe that account is spelt differently? SomeoneElse (talk) 22:02, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/zgreta/history also does not exist. 3rd time lucky? SomeoneElse (talk) 13:05, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

looks like the user name is case sensitive. https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Zgreta works now --ECannon (talk) 13:15, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Please update this page

None of the listed editors or contact details seem current. SomeoneElse (talk) 15:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

All participants and contact info listed on the main page are correct and current. --Harveyzartico (talk) 17:49, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Please email data@openstreetmap.org with a subject line of "[Ticket#2024012510000174] Zartico" so that we can discuss. There's someone claiming to be from Zartico who's not on that page. SomeoneElse (talk) 12:53, 17 February 2024 (UTC)