User talk:JeroenvanderGun

Your edit on Default Speed Limits

So I understand the daytime reduction on motorways only applies if there is a sign? If you, could you please also retain the original source in the footnote, just for reference?

Additionally, you renamed the motorway limit to "rural motorway" limit. You gave no source. This means, that for motorways within city limits, no speed limit would be defined at all. That does not make sense. This motorway for example can be considered to be within the city https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1094224801#map=16/51.9416/4.5339 , yet, the speed limit is not 50 km/h but 100 km/h. It is common in legislation to sort the motorway speed limit into "outside the settlement" speed limits or word it like "in the city, speed limit is ...., otherwise, on road XYZ it's ....". That doesn't mean that motorways within the city have the city speed limit. It just means that generally in legislation the definition of "urban" differs from how e.g. router applications (for which this table is made) determine whether a road is urban or not. In other words, a motorway, unless specifically defined in the legislation can never be urban, hence it does not make sense to put that into the table, it would only serve to confuse data consumers. I reverted that particular edit.

--Westnordost (talk)

Also, you added the note about European Netherlands. This will not be understood by the parser as long as the European part of the Netherlands does not have an own ISO country code. As far as I know, it does not have an own ISO country code. The only way this can work would be to add the overseas territories (that hopefully do have an ISO country code) too. If necessary, just empty (i.e. add one row which is otherwise empty.) --Westnordost (talk)

So I understand the daytime reduction on motorways only applies if there is a sign? Yes, the document you referenced was not a law, but simply a decision by the national road operator to place a massive number of new speed limit signs. As mentioned on Reduced speed limit on Dutch motorways, there are usually no signs on on-ramps, which means the legal limit remains 130 there.

Additionally, you renamed the motorway limit to "rural motorway" limit. You gave no source. This is stated directly in the source that was already referenced. Article 21 only applies outside city limits (Dutch: buiten de bebouwde kom, zone:traffic=NL:rural). The default speed limit on urban motorways/motorroads is defined in article 20, not in article 21.

This motorway for example can be considered to be within the city No it cannot, that's outside signed city limits - and also it has speed limit signs overriding the default anyway. Motorways inside city limits exist but are rare (only short segments), motorroads inside city limits are more common.

As far as I know, it does not have an own ISO country code. Correct. Officially, the country the Netherlands also has no ISO code by the way, NL corresponds to the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

overseas territories (that hopefully do have an ISO country code) The three Netherlands islands have subdivision codes under country code BQ. The three other countries in the Kingdom have country codes.

--JeroenvanderGun (talk) 19:25, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Data consumers such as routers determine whether a road is urban or rural primarily by looking at the density of roads (or buildings / closeness to residential etc. landuses) in the vicinity. Hence, as far as data consumers are concerned, motorways cutting straight through a city are not `rural`. As I wrote, the Dutch definition, as is the case with the definition in many other countries of `urban` may be "it's urban if you've passed the city limits sign", but it is not the definition used in this table for the aforementioned reason.

Do motorways and motorroads that cut through a city in the Netherlands have a speed limit of 50 km/h unless there is a sign? --Westnordost (talk)

This has nothing to do with motorways/motorroads. No unsigned road has a speed limit of 50 km/h whatsoever. And looking at proximity of buildings is going to miss-classify a lot of roads regardless of road type. But the "exact tag rules" specified for urban and rural further down the page will pick the wrong limit if you say "motorroad" instead of "urban motorroad". If you're concerned about "fuzzy tag rules" misfiring, it seems like the solution here is to specify different/better "fuzzy tag rules" for urban/rural, either globally or locally for the Netherlands. But exact rules should be exact. --JeroenvanderGun (talk) 21:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

No unsigned road has a speed limit of 50 km/h? What do you mean, a road within a city where there are no speed limit signs has a speed limit of 50 km/h, has it not? --Westnordost (talk) 22:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

To get a 50 km/h speed limit, there needs to be either a 50 km/h speed limit sign, or a city limit sign. This applies equally to all roads, including motorways and motorroads. --JeroenvanderGun (talk) 22:13, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Are there any city limit signs on motorways or motorroads? --Westnordost (talk) 23:28, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes. --JeroenvanderGun (talk) 23:50, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Only on motorroads or also on motorways? What is the speed limit for these then? --Westnordost (talk) 23:54, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Both, although as said on motorways it is very rare (motorways within city limits is possible in the traffic regulations but violate official road design standards - unlike motorroads). The part of the motorway/motorroad within city limits has a speed limit of 50 km/h unless an explicit speed limit sign indicates otherwise (just like other roads). If there are no speed limit signs, upon passing the city limit, the speed limit on the motorway/motorroad changes directly from 130/100 km/h to 50 km/h or vice versa. --JeroenvanderGun (talk) 00:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Can you link an example of a city limits sign on a motorway (streetview, mapillary)? How would you tag in OSM that a motorway is rural? --Westnordost (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

* urban motorway (default 50 km/h) -> rural motorway (initially default 130 km/h, later signed 100 km/h)

* urban motorway (signed 100/120 km/h) -> rural motorway (signed 100/120 km/h) (older end-of-city-limit sign without place name)

* rural motorroad (default 100 km/h) -> urban motorroad (signed 70 km/h)

* urban motorroad (signed 70 km/h) -> rural motorroad (default 100 km/h)

There are also various motorroads which are entirely within city limits, e.g.:

* urban motorroad (default 50 km/h)

--JeroenvanderGun (talk) 14:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, indeed, this is difficult... because as far as I know, there is no tag in OpenStreetMap to denote that a motorway for example is a **rural** motorway. The tag source:maxspeed=NL:rural motorway or similar does not exist. There is only source:maxspeed=NL:motorway. Yet, the whole Default Speed Limits page is a **projection** of legislation to OSM tags. Any idea how to solve this? --Westnordost (talk) 15:22, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

zone:traffic=NL:rural can be used, though for the Netherlands that's basically an implicit default for motorways (motorways/motorroads are not separate 'zones', the only 'zones' in the Netherlands are zone:traffic=NL:rural and zone:traffic=NL:urban). source:maxspeed=NL:motorway would mean a rural motorway since the motorway default speed limit only applies to rural motorways (urban motorways would use source:maxspeed=NL:urban). --JeroenvanderGun (talk) 17:04, 13 November 2022 (UTC)