User talk:Ottonormalverbraucher

Can you look at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dpedestrian#Remove_Signs_.28selection.29 ? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 15:35, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Removing template parameters

Please, do not remove parameters of template like you did at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:man_made%3Dbridge&action=history

Page may look correct, but it makes it hard to edit as template is now based on hard to edit data items rather on the editable wiki page.

Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 23:47, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@Mateusz Konieczny:: Interesting approach. Now I do not understand why I should not edit the pages just because others have problems to understand the relationships. Do you have links to read about, such as discussions, agreements, etc. --Ottonormalverbraucher (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Do you have links to read about, such as discussions, agreements, etc that support removal of standard way of recording tag status by data items? There was some discussion about introducing it, but there was never discussion about removing template parameters, especially for English version of the Wiki Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 00:35, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Beschriftungen "Label" in der Tag-Datenbank

Hallo,

diese Änderungen an railway=light_rail (Q7023) scheinen mir nicht zielführend zu sein. Die Eigenschaft "Gruppe" wird verwendet, um die Tag-Seiten zu kategorisieren und "Label" kann zum Übersetzen von Schlüssel und Wert benutzt werden. Ich habe sie daher rückgängig gemacht. Es gibt eine deutschsprachige Dokumentation zu den "Data-items". --Tigerfell  (Let's talk) 17:52, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

@Tigerfell: Danke für deine Erläuterungen und Hinweise. Nun ist es so, dass ich vor Entfernung der Eigenschaft „Gruppe“ das der Infobox zugrundeliegende Module:DescriptionFromDataItem durchgearbeitet habe. Dort heißt es unter „CONSTANTS“:

-- "fallback" - if this property is not set on the Tag item, check the corresponding Key item

also die Anforderung an das Modul, bei Nichtsetzung einer Eigenschaft auf dem „Tag item“, die Eigenschaft des zugrundeliegenden Attributsschlüssels (P10) verwendet wird. Die Zuordnung der Gruppe erfolgt über

p.GROUP = { id = 'P25', fallback = true }

also Gruppe aus Tag, wenn nicht vorhanden Gruppe aus Key und jeweils dort die Kategorie gemäß Label der Sprachversion.
Ich nun die Dokumentationen durchgearbeitet und weder in der deutschsprachigen als auch in der englischsprachigen Original-Dokumentation einen Hinweis darauf gefunden von dieser bewerten Art und Weise (Key als Eltern-Element im Allgemeinen und Tag als Kind-Element im Besonderen) abzuweichen. --Ottonormalverbraucher (talk) 13:24, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Das klingt konsequent, ich wusste nicht, dass das ein allgemeines Prinzip ist, aber ich habe es intuitiv bei den Wikiseiten angewendet. Ich frage mich aber, ob das bei Data items so gedacht war oder ob das nur die Umsetzung der Vorlage war, mit dem Ziel möglichst viele Seiten zu kategorisieren. Ich werde versuchen, das über Talk:Data items aufzuklären. --Tigerfell  (Let's talk) 21:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Undo explanation

I undid your edit because you completely removed "Waterways" category in this edit (see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:waterway%3Dditch&oldid=prev&diff=1931534 ) Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 16:29, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

@Mateusz Konieczny:: That's right, so that the inserting and the correct sorting can be done via the template {{ValueDescription}}. --Ottonormalverbraucher (talk) 07:15, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Can you explain this? Is the information coming from the data items (wikibase) now? --Jeisenbe (talk) 12:42, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Removing group= from pages?

Why did you remove the "group=" field from the valuedescription box in Key:crop and crop=tea among other pages? See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:crop%3Dtea&diff=next&oldid=1890685 and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:crop&diff=next&oldid=1907658 --Jeisenbe (talk) 12:10, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Also there are many other edits with the claim "Infobox group in database" but this is ambiguous. Do you mean that the group is in the "wikibase" data items? In Openstreetmap.org "in the database" should refer to the openstreetmap database which contains geodata.

I don't think it is a good idea to remove this information from the wiki pages. It is easy to see and edit there. The community has not made any decision to switch to the "wikibase" data items to store all this information. --Jeisenbe (talk) 12:32, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I try to assign the same groups to all language versions. Since some of these have to be partially adjusted, I will take them out right away. The items are then sorted into groups and categories using the item. See User talk:Ottonormalverbraucher#Beschriftungen "Label" in der Tag-Datenbank above (unfortunately only in German) for explanation. --Ottonormalverbraucher (talk) 14:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I have read an automatically translated version of the comments above, but it does not appear that [[User:Tigerfell|Tigerfell]]'s concerns were fully addressed. Please respond to their comment: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Data_items#Clarification:_relation_between_data_items_about_tags_and_keys

My opinion is that information should not be removed from the (English) tag: and key: documentation pages just because it has been added to the wiki data items system, because it makes it impossible to know when the page has been changed without also following the data item page.

Right now there are several users (e.g. User:Mateusz_Konieczny) who follow all of the main feature pages in English (the Key: and Tag: pages for the features that are listed in Map Features and commonly used by most rendering and routing applications), and we try to fix any changes which would redefine the meaning of a major map feature. While the "group=" or category is not so important for this, I am concerned that I will now need to follow every data item page corresponding to a primary feature page, just to be able to know when the page is changing. This will lead to many more notifications about page changes (because the data items change when any language is edited), and the additional "noise" in email boxes will make it harder to spot mistakes and vandalism. I also translate pages into Indonesian, so I can see how the wiki data items might be useful for reducing the amount of work needed for translated pages: that's a good thing. But the English pages are the primary documentation of the meaning of tags and they should continue to hold complete information, rather than having things deleted.

While deleting "group=" is a small step, I am concerned that this will lead to deleting other things from the ValueDescription box on the wiki pages in the future, as you planned back in August with this following discussion: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Ottonormalverbraucher#Removing_template_parameters --Jeisenbe (talk) 22:04, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Adding categories in the form of "Category:Places|place=farm"

What is the reason for adding a category in this format:

Category:Places|place=farm

or

Category:Landuse|landuse=farmyard

or

Category:Man made|man_made=water_well

I don't quite understand what this category format is doing. --Jeisenbe (talk) 12:14, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

This is the default sort of the categories in Template:KeyDescription and Template:ValueDescription. Only one group can be assigned in the template (directly or generated from database). If a category is also to be added to a page, it must be sorted in this way if it is to be sorted alphabetically.

(Second attempt after edit conflict) --Ottonormalverbraucher (talk) 13:07, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. Is this behaviour documented somewhere? If not, it would be nice to have it mentioned on a wiki page about how the "category" pages are made. --Jeisenbe (talk) 22:07, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

It is documented at Wiki guidelines#Categories. --Tigerfell  (Let's talk) 17:30, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Removing categories related to keys

It looks like a number of categories have been removed in this format:

Category:Keys:Man made

With the comment "tag is not a key". Eg: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:man_made%3Dpumping_rig&diff=0&oldid=1881838

But of course the tag isn't a key, it's a value for the key. Are you sure these edits are correct? --Jeisenbe (talk) 12:27, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, because the page is already automatically sorted into Category:Tag descriptions for key "man_made" and this is a subcategory of Category:Keys:Man made. --Ottonormalverbraucher (talk) 13:25, 25 December 2019 (UTC)