Proposal:Tag:amenity=motorcycle taxi

Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi
Proposal status:	Rejected (inactive)
Proposed by:	Jeisenbe
Tagging:	amenity=motorcycle_taxi Data item
Applies to:	nodes , areas
Definition:	A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers
Statistics:
Draft started:	2019-9-19
RFC start:	2020-2-20
Vote start:	2020-4-15
Vote end:	2020-4-30

Proposal

Use amenity=motorcycle_taxi for the location of a motorcycle taxi stand, a place where motorcycle taxi drivers wait for passengers.

Rationale

Currently amenity=taxi is used for a taxicab stand, a place where motorcar taxi cabs wait for passengers. However, in many countries in Southeast Asia and elsewhere, motorcycles are much more common than automobile taxi cabs. In these places, motorcycle drivers wait at stands, often with a small shelter, and they can be hired to take one or more passengers to various destinations. A fare is paid for a one-way trip, usually after negotiation. The passenger usually rides behind the driver on the same seat. In some countries two passengers can be carried on one motorcycle "taxi", though this may not be legally permitted.

Motorcycle taxis are also known as "motos" or "bike taxi", or by other local names, such as "ojek" in Indonesia and Singapore, "boda-boda" in Uganda, and "okada" in Nigeria.

A number of mapped features already include a name or description suggesting that they could use a tag such as this:

LOADING TAG LIST...

There are also 252 features with amenity=taxi + motorcycle=yes, mostly with motorcar=no as of April 2019: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/SoI - This tagging was recommended on the Phillipines tagging guidelines page previously.

Why not use amenity=taxi?

While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus the additional tags motorcar=no + motorcycle=yes for motorcycle taxi stands, this has several disadvanages:

1. implies that a taxicab and a hired motorcyle "ojek" are the same feature.
2. requires using 3 tags instead of one.
3. If only amenity=taxi is tagged, it would now become ambiguous: is this actually a taxicab stand, or might it be a motorcycle taxi stand which is missing a tag?
4. confusing for travelers who generally expect a "taxicab" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying at least 4 passengers and their luggage. This is quite different than a motorcycle which can only carry one passenger with a small amount of baggage.
5. Motorcyles have different abilities: In contrast to a family or group which needs a 4 to 6 seat taxicab, single travelers may strongly prefer to hire motorcycles when available, due to their lower cost and ability to fit through smaller spaces in congested cities and rural areas with narrow roads and paths. Motorcar taxicabs with 4 wheels in 2 tracks cannot access highway=path features and narrow roads, but motorcycles may be permitted and feasible due to their narrow width and single track.
6. Many database users currently interpret amenity=taxi as a motorcar taxicab via use of a standard "taxi" icon such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taxi_Icon.png - this would be broken by such a change.

So a different tag is proposed to avoid confusion and more precisely tag these features.

Similar features

In the future, an additional tags for pedaled tricycle cabs (pedicabs aka bicycle rickshaws) should be proposed.

Some have suggested a tag for horse-drawn carriages, but these might better be under the key tourism=*, since they are rarely used as a practical method of transportation.

Auto Rickshaws (Tuk-Tuks), hired motor vehicles 3 wheels and a covered seating area with separate benches, should not be tagged with amenity=motorcycle_taxi. (It is not yet clear if Autorickshaws should be tagged with amenity=taxi since they are 2-track, covered motor vehicles, or if an additional feature tag is recommended)

Examples

• 

  Pangkalan ojek (motorcycle taxi stand) in Indonesia

• 

  Motorcyle taxi "pilots" wait for passengers in Goa, India

• 

  A Vietnamese xe ôm driver and passenger.

• 

  "Okada" motorcycle taxis in Lagos, Nigeria

• 

  Pangkalan ojek (motorcycle taxi shelter) in Papua, Indonesia

Tagging

Add the tag amenity=motorcycle_taxi to a node located at the place where motorcycle operators queue to wait for passengers. You can also draw an area if there is an enclosed shelter for example.

Optionally add:

• name=* - if the motorcycle taxi stand has a name
• opening_hours=* - if the hours and days of operation are known.
• operator=* - for queues or stands that are operated by a single company

Also consider mapping a amenity=shelter area separately or adding building=roof if there is a roof over the motorcycle taxi stand.

Applies to

• Nodes - preferred
• Areas

Rendering

• Could use an icon showing a stylized motorcycle with a passenger on the back, or a motorcycle helmet?

Features/Pages affected

• amenity=motorcycle_taxi - create page
• amenity=taxi - update to mention amenity=motorcycle_taxi
• Template:Map_Features:amenity - add to list

External discussions

Tagging mailing list:

• January 2019 - https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/041828.html
• September 2019 - https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-September/048288.html
• February 2020 - Request for comments (RFC) - https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-February/051211.html

Comments

Please comment on the discussion page.

Voting

Voting closed

Voting on this proposal has been closed.

The result is Not approved with 11 votes for and 8 votes against.

Did not meet supermajority requirement (>74%)

• I approve this proposal. I have already used this tag in Indonesia a couple of dozen times, and I've also discussed it with a few mappers in the Phillipines, where several different tagging systems have been used. This tag will be easy to use and unambiguous. Since motorcycle taxi stands are always at a somewhat different location than motorcar taxicab stands and other hired vehicles, they should each get a different node and tag. The alternative of adding a subtag to amenity=taxi would be misleading to current database users, who will expect a taxicab (motorcar) stand with that tag, and would be disappointed to find a motorcycle when they need a car to transport 4 people plus luggage. --Jeisenbe (talk) 11:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

• I oppose this proposal. Because Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi#Similar_features This new tag has two concepts "a place to have a taxi" and "what kind of taxi I can find there". If you already think of creating other new tags each for a different kind of vehicle them you should factorize the tags. One tag for the taxi area, one tag for the available vehicles. The easy way to go is amenity=taxi + motorcycle=yes + rickshaw=yes etc. I have the exact difficulties with bicycle_parking vs motorcycle_parking where both bicycle and motorcycle can share the same place. For me, every points of Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi#Why_not_use_amenity.3Dtaxi.3F are pro to have two tags, no need to change current map rendering to already have the information for instance. --Florimondable (talk) 16:19, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

This isn't like parking, which can be used by motorcycle or a bicycle. In all the places I've visited, "ojek" and "boda-boda" stands are in a different place from pedicab (tricycle) or taxicab (motorcar) stands. This makes sense, because the prices are different and you would not have a queue of mixed vehicles waiting for the same passengers: someone who wants a motorcycle is quite different than a taxicab customer.

As on of the maintainers of the OpenStreetMap Carto style, I would consider it a problem if mappers suddently start to use amenity=taxi for motorcycle and tricycle (pedicab) stands, because these nodes are currently interpreted as a taxi cab stand. The icon used shows a motorcar, and I can't think of any good icon that would work for cabs, motorcycles and trikes. This is also true for editors like iD and JOSM, and several other map styles which show taxicab stands. See trolltag: "Trolltags are tags used to modify the properties of a well known feature such as highway, building or hotel in a way that radically changes the original meaning of the feature." --Jeisenbe (talk) 02:42, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. --Westnordost (talk) 17:15, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Dieterdreist (talk) 17:53, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment There's lots of different types of taxis. Instead of creating separate amenity tags for them all, Why not just use the regular amenity=taxi tag, which is already widely supported, along with something like taxi=motorcycle? --Adamant1 (talk) 09:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

This is explained in the section Why not use amenity=taxi?. To summarize, using amenity=taxi + taxi=motorcycle implies that a taxicab and a hired motorcyle "ojek" are the same feature, requires using 3 tags instead of one, and makes amenity=taxi ambiguous - is it a taxicab stand or an ojek motorcycle stand? --Jeisenbe (talk) 11:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I mean, I kind of get it. But whatever it might imply, they are still taxis. I doubt noemal users would think on that deep a level about it.The fact that it is a motorycle is secondary to it being a taxi. Like there isn't leisure=park_tarmac or whatever. You could use something like vehicle=* instead of taxi=*. Maybe someone wants to find a taxi, but sort them by type. The stand thing could also already apply to the normal amenity=taxi tag and I'm not sure how your tag clarifies it. Adamant1 (talk) 11:30, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

They are certainly not considered "taxis" here in Indonesia (or in the Phillipines, from what I was told). If you was for a "taxi" you will get an SUV or minivan. If you want a motorcycle, you have to ask for an ojek. The markets are completely different: an "ojek" usually only costs 30 cents, just a little more than a public tranport bus ride, and can carry 1 person (or 2), with minimal luggage. A taxi costs several dollars and can carry a whole family with lots of stuff, so if you want the one, you never want the other. Unfortunately, the only English language term which works is "motorcycle taxi", which does explain that it is stand for a hired passsenger vehicle. But it's a bit like calling a cab a "small bus" because both taxis and buses are used for passenger transport, though a taxi stand and a bus stop are quite different. --Jeisenbe (talk) 12:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. It sounded like a bad idea at first, but you raised many valid points with the Why not use amenity=taxi? section. --Floridaeditor (talk) 15:35, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
• I oppose this proposal. Don't like to create a tag key for each vehicle. --Francians (talk) 17:00, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --MalgiK (talk) 09:37, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
• I oppose this proposal. I consider that we should avoid creating top level tags for each type of taxi that exists. Wikipedia says that "a taxi (...), is a type of vehicle for hire with a driver, used by a single passenger or small group of passengers, often for a non-shared ride." I understand that a "Motorcycle taxi" also fits in that definition. So, in my opinion, it would be better to continue using the amenity=taxi tag and describe the type of vehicle with a subtag. For example: amenity=taxi + taxi_type=motorcycle; amenity=taxi + taxi_type=bicycle; amenity=taxi + taxi_type=pulled --Ignaciolep (talk) 03:20, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

The wikipedia article continues by describing 4 types of "taxicab", all of which are motor vehicles. British English dictionaries only include motorcars in taxi: "a car with a driver that you pay to take you somewhere. Taxis usually have meters that show how much money you have to pay." - https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/taxi_1 - "a car with a driver who you pay to take you somewhere" - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/taxi - And "taxicab", "cab" are synonyms. Currently database users assume that an amenity=taxi is a taxicab stand. It would be quite surprising to find bicycles or motorcycles or a rickshaw when you expect a cab. If you have lived in or visited a country where there are motorcycles as described, it is not at all like hailing a cab with a meter. --Jeisenbe (talk) 06:38, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I am astonished how less people that oppose in this thread seem to care about current (and future) data usage. If we mix taxi boats, taxi carriages, motorcycle taxis, taxi busses, helicopter taxis, taxi slighs and all other kind of taxis into the taxi tag, which until now was used exclusively for motorcar taxis, we will devalue the existing taxi tagging in areas where other services exist, and we will make current applications essentially unusable until someone will pick it up and fix the issue by looking at secondary tags. Imagine you need a taxi and a bicycle arrives at your place. Or a motorcycle to bring you with 2 big suitcases to the airport. The subtagging A=B, B=C works only for things where every C is also an A=B. If motorcycle taxis aren't taxis, they should not be a subtag of amenity=taxi. @Jeisenbe, I guess if you had proposed the tag "amenity=ojek" nobody would have complained, just by using an explanatory term people have these "this must be a subtag of a taxi" kind of associations. --Dieterdreist (talk) 09:08, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

This. In other words, defining subtags to amenity=taxi would be a redefinition of the amenity=taxi key. So far, amenity=taxi is used as a taxi stand for cars. If it should include other type of taxis now, that's a redefinition, a big no-no. It is sad that this proposal seems to be failing, because the alternative proposed by those who are voting no contravenes against the no-redefinitions-rule for tagging proposal - so, the alternative proposed is not possible --Westnordost (talk) 10:11, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@Jeisenbe, let's continue with the British English dictionaries. The Oxford Learner's Dictionary includes a "water taxi" in the "Extra Examples" section. That is a small boat, and despite that it is included among the taxi examples. The Oxford University Press Dictionary (https://www.lexico.com/definition/taxi) says in 1.1. "other means of transportation used in the same way as a taxi." and in the "More example sentences" section it includes a "taxi boat", 7 (seven) examples of "motorbike taxi" and even a "donkey taxi." With all this it just want to state that the word "taxi" are not just taxicabs, but also "other means of transportation used in the same way as a taxi." Please consider describing the taxi vehicle type with a subtag. Thanks. --Ignaciolep (talk) 15:47, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. --Sommerluk (talk) 10:38, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. I'm sort of against this tag, but the other alternative would be amenity=ojek. Which IMO is better, but it doesn't follow the British English tagging conventions inherent in OSM. Something like taxi=ojek or taxi=motorcycle won't work either, for reasons I'm personally unclear about but I'm sure Jeisenbe thought through. So, I guess this is the only workable way to tag these at the moment. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:39, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

For clarity I would recommend you remove your abstain vote above (keep the comment if you like, but remove the voting template, or you would have "voted" 2 times). --Dieterdreist (talk) 08:46, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I didn't know that was a thing. Adamant1 (talk) 07:48, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. --sorcrosc (talk) 21:21, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• I oppose this proposal. The multiplication of unique tags seems to me to be a bad option for the OSM project. If an underwater taxi project develops, will we have to tag amenity=submarine_taxi ?--Gendy54 (talk) 11:24, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

exactly, we would have a new tag. Using the same tag is what makes sense if it applies. Is an underwater taxi ok if you need a taxi? Many values aren’t an issue (as long as they describe distinct things), many different keys are more problematic. If we would use amenity=taxi and another tag like taxi_vehicle=motorcycle, everybody who evaluates amenity=taxi would show these different things just the same as automobile taxis, until they act and adapt their rules. On the other hand, if we introduce a new tag, nobody will show them until they adapt the rules, in other words it will not break existing applications.—Dieterdreist (talk) 11:48, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• I oppose this proposal. This proposal is well written and a lot of time has been invested to solve issues and look for consensus. However, I don't agree with most of 5 out of 6 points of Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi#Why_not_use_amenity.3Dtaxi.3F as it's not how I consider tagging in OSM (which doesn't mean it's a right way). I didn't took time to get involved in discussions but most of problems has already been raised by others. Documentation work is valuable anyway despite opposition from a semantic point of view Fanfouer (talk) 11:38, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. The service is widely used as a transportation in the cities of Asunción (Py), Ciudad del Este (Py), Encarnación (Py), Foz do Iguazú (Br), Puerto Iguazú (Ar), Posadas (Ar).--CarlosBrys (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
• I oppose this proposal. I support the motivation and spirit of the proposal, just not the scheme/format/implementation (not sure if I should make a counter-proposal this "early" without much thought). I must say I strongly disagree with the sub-tagging under amenity=taxi raised multiple times above. They don't makse sense. Proposed_features/Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi#Why_not_use_amenity.3Dtaxi.3F is well thought. However, the way forward in Proposed_features/Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi#Similar_features leaves much to be desired in relations to this proposal. -- Kovposch (talk) 11:58, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

What would be the alternative then? These are real-world, current features that are already being mapped and are interesting for locals and visitors who need transportation in Indonesia, the Phillipines, East Africa and other places. You say the "Similar features" section is a problem, but that's just informational, to clarify that a 3-wheel "tuk-tuk" or "autorickshaw" is not a motorcycle. What is the problem with this proposal, if you don't support re-using amenity=taxi for all hired transportation? --Jeisenbe (talk) 15:04, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• I oppose this proposal. Using several tags to finely describe the object seems healthier and more durable than creating a new top level tag for each kind of taxi vehicle --Singing-Poppy (talk) 12:22, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

So you are suggesting using taxi=boat for a gondola in Venice and taxi=airplane for a seaplane in Alaska and taxi=carriage for a horse-drawn carriage in Central Park? Are you sure that explanding amenity=taxi to include boats, planes, carriages, horse carts etc is a good idea? --Jeisenbe (talk) 15:04, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. --JB (talk) 12:54, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
• I oppose this proposal. Yes, definitively it's a taxi and I'm fine with taxi=boat or taxi=airplane. If it matters, look for amenity=taxi, taxi=motorcycle: the first tag describe the kind of amenity the second the specific one. We should not tag for the OpenStreetMap Carto style renderer ;-). --Nospam2005 (talk) 17:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

To expand the definition of amenity=taxi that it could be any means of transportation would be a redefinition of amenity=taxi. In other words, for all mapped "normal" car taxi stands so far, it would suddenly be unknown if they'd be boat, airplane, motorcycle, tuk-tuk or car taxis. Introducing redefinitions goes against the rules of tagging proposals. --Westnordost (talk) 10:22, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Can you show me where amenity=taxi is defined as motorcar only please? Introducing redefinitions goes against the rules of tagging proposals I respectably disagree as I got several redefinitions approved after voting. Fanfouer (talk) 17:30, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

on amenity=taxi: A taxi rank (or taxi stand, taxicab stand, etc.) is a place where taxis wait for passengers. Often found at airports, hotels, railway/bus/subway stations, large shopping centers or other places people congregate, this clearly says “taxi”, which are not vehicle rent with driver, bus hire, helicopter taxi, or horse drawn carriage tours. A taxi is an automobile.—Dieterdreist (talk) 22:20, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I may have confused taxi vehicle (a car) with an extended idea of a taxi service involving any vehicle for hire. Including other means than car is discussed since 2009. amenity=taxi won't become unclear in 2020 by introducing motorcycles but actually is unclear since early OSM. Adding explicit qualification of available vehicles is the best thing we can do to stay credible in cities considering less and less place to cars. We can took motorcycle taxis in Paris as well Fanfouer (talk) 22:12, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Are there hired motorcycle stands in Paris: a place where motorcycle drivers wait for customers, as shown in the pictures above, or is it only app-based? My impression is that the physical feature, the motorcycle stand, is very rare to non-existent in western Europe.

Many motorcycle taxi are app or call based but you can find them on crowded taxicab stands as well. Fanfouer (talk) 22:47, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Here in Indonesia, although ojek stands are much more common than taxi cab stands, all of the amenity=taxi features which I have seen have been motorcar taxis, there was no confusion. As mentioned above, there are only a handful of amenity=taxi features which include a tag that suggests they are not motorcar taxicabs queue locations. --Jeisenbe (talk) 22:33, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

As the point is to provide a worldwide tagging guideline, I'd prefer explicit concepts and be more and more doubtful about values containing two words. We missed an occasion here to reinforce amenity=taxi definition as a service, not as a particular vehicle Fanfouer (talk) 22:47, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. I woulnd't like to have amenity=taxi redefined, so I'm fine with this.--Lukas458 (talk) 18:51, 2 May 2020 (UTC)