Proposal talk:Grab rails

Direction is ill-defined

*:left=* / *:right=* is an attribute interpreted based on direction. You can't use it directly. A standalone doesn't have direction. On a , it would mean the outside or inside of the area has a different attribute.
I can't remember if there are any exceptions, or how is this circumvented. It should at least prefixed toilets:left:*rail=* / toilets:right:*rail=* to refer to the toilet only.
—— Kovposch (talk) 19:41, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

The 'direction' is when sitting on the toilet. So if you sit on the toilet and have a grab rail on your left, that would be "left". This was written down, but it was very easy to gloss over, I've added this in bold. --Pietervdvn (talk) 23:15, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

That's not the critical issue. You are having a conflict with the *:left=* / *:right=* syntax.
—— Kovposch (talk) 08:57, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Forgot another issue. There can be urinals with rails in both accessible and non-accessible toilets. But then seated:right:*=* doesn't look great. It has to be toilets:seated:right:*rail=* on both toilets=* and amenity=toilets , as discussed in a section below. toilets:urinal:right:*rail=* may need to follow it.

• https://www.rethinkaccess.com/articles/accessible-urinals
• https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-unisex-and-wheelchair-accessible-public-restroom-usa-73815485.html

—— Kovposch (talk) 08:02, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Not specifying side is not a "mistake"

The side should be an optional/recommended detail. Not suffixing a side is a coarse info. It's not wrong. A user can forget, or be uninterested in adding the side.
—— Kovposch (talk) 19:47, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Fair point. I'd consider it as 'something that should be improved' then. --Pietervdvn (talk) 23:16, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Verbose, mismatched, and mixing different aspects

*=horizontal_wall_mounted;vertical_wall_mounted shows this format doesn't work concisely. *=foldable is still horizontal wall-mounted, only not fixed. *=toilet_armrest is an additional part on a rail or bar on the toilet, not dedicated. They should be separated.

• toilets:*:*rail=*
  • toilets:*:*rail=horizontal
  • toilets:*:*rail=vertical
  • toilets:*:*rail=diagonal
  • toilets:*:*rail:*=horizontal;vertical
• toilets:*:*rail:installation=* ( from cycle_barrier:installation=* ) : It doesn't really matter where it's mounted. It's basically almost always on the wall. This is not necessary to specify.
  • toilets:*:*rail:installation=fixed
  • toilets:*:*rail:installation=foldable
• toilets:armrest=*

—— Kovposch (talk) 20:05, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

What I'm trying to achieve here is that a wall_mounted item is typically about 15cm away from the wall, whereas one could park their wheelchair on one side of the foldable support rail, get up and then go around the support to get seated - which is why I want to make the distinction. I'm also confused by all the * in your explanation. Would you mind replacing them by possible values? --Pietervdvn (talk) 23:23, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

That's still possible to be expressed by toilets:right:handrail:installation=foldable
—— Kovposch (talk) 09:06, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Wheelchair-mode prefix

The wheelchair:*=* namespace you or someone imported doesn't apply here. wheelchair:turning_circle=* means a special attribute turning_circle=* with different meaning in the wheelchair=* context.
toilets:wheelchair:*=* is interpreted as the *=* attribute on the toilets:wheelchair=* . It doesn't get truncated to wheelchair:*=* on the amenity=toilets . If the amenity=toilets + wheelchair=designated isn't being created separately, it better keep using toilets:wheelchair:*=* for what's in the accessible toilet only.
—— Kovposch (talk) 20:14, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

So, what you are saying is to either use amenity=toilets, grab_rail:<left/right>=* (if there is only one toilet) or amenity=toilets, wheelchair=yes (there is a designated wheelchair toilet) and toilets:wheelchair:grab_rail:<left/right>=* ? And to not use wheelchair:grab_rail:<left/right>=* in this case? --Pietervdvn (talk) 23:21, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, wheelchair:*=* should not be used here. But as discussed above, it better be toilets:wheelchair:right:*=* to refer to the side of the toilet itself, instead of the object's data structure.
—— Kovposch (talk) 09:08, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Armrests being one-sided, fixed, and combined

*rail:right=toilet_armrest is listed, but are there actually armrests that are not both sided? You can't use grab_rail:right=horizontal_wall_mounted + grab_rail:both=toilet_armrest for such a common case , as grab_rail:right=* or grab_rail:both=* will be overwritten by the other, a error considered by validators. It has to be grab_rail:right=horizontal_wall_mounted;toilet_armrest + grab_rail:left=toilet_armrest , further verbose and redundant.
To extend one of the above section, in contrast, armrests can also be foldable. *:installation=foldable would be usable on both.
There are some flat-top or padded rails. They function as both rails and armrests.

• https://ninelife.ch/products/bathroom-handrail-grab-rail-armrest-grab-bar-wall-mounted-grab-rails-foldable-drop-down-toilet-rail-support-flipup-bathroom-grab-bar-toilet-arms-handicap-assist-accessories
• https://www.amazon.com/MIIKHI-Foldable-Disabled-Accessible-Handrail/dp/B0D3QD87LR

—— Kovposch (talk) 07:33, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

You've found a beautiful edge case there. I've split up armrests in a different proposal for now.