Proposal talk:Showground (2)
Key
Maybe leisure=* is better for this places. What do you think about leisure=showground? -- Something B (talk) 11:29, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think so, too. --Lukas458 (talk) 15:46, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- I guess showgrounds are not limited to leisure targeting. For example an agricultural exhibition or local trade festival would be considered quite commercial or "serious" by the farmers and merchants doing trade there. The distinction to amenity=exhibition_centre is not the target audience but the level of provided facilites:
The function of these are somewhat similar to that of amenity=exhibition_centre, but it has far fewer facilities.
Maybe it would be helpfull to clarify this aspect in the proposal/tag description.--Trapicki (talk) 15:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- I guess showgrounds are not limited to leisure targeting. For example an agricultural exhibition or local trade festival would be considered quite commercial or "serious" by the farmers and merchants doing trade there. The distinction to amenity=exhibition_centre is not the target audience but the level of provided facilites:
- I chose amenity=* given that nearly all facilities for hosting events is put under amenity=*: amenity=exhibition_centre, amenity=conference_centre, amenity=events_venue, amenity=arts_centre as well as more "leisure oriented" facilities like amenity=theatre. --Popball (talk) 20:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Why not use "event" directly eg amenity=events_ground ? It's not limited to "shows". This helps show it's not leisure=* to include business. "Events" is common alongside MICE. USA has an Events Industry Council, and UK a Events Industry Board under the Tourism Industry Council. Your definition already is hosting "events". Consistency with amenity=events_venue is promoted, if not allowing for future unification of amenity=*_centre in amenity=events_centre to consolidate the amenity=conference_centre and amenity=exhibition_centre now. --- Kovposch (talk) 08:53, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- I quite like the idea of amenity=events_ground, and I think this would help unify very similar features which are distinguished by the type of event that tends to be held there. (Background: showground was initially chosen as it it seems to be a British term, but and "events ground" seems more universal and more applicable. --Popball (talk) 10:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Following the section below, would still be possible to add events_ground=showground, or better events=shows (for the main or usual activity) if desired. Then eg shows=agriculture / shows=agricultural can be used. sport=* asked below may follow events=sport when accepted. --- Kovposch (talk) 14:38, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- I quite like the idea of amenity=events_ground, and I think this would help unify very similar features which are distinguished by the type of event that tends to be held there. (Background: showground was initially chosen as it it seems to be a British term, but and "events ground" seems more universal and more applicable. --Popball (talk) 10:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Please note that leisure=events also exists. Something B (talk) 10:54, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Firstly, larger shows/fairs are substantial commercial events. Leisure tag is inappropriate. Showground is undoubtedly the current dominant usage in EN-GB which is how OSM tags are supposed to be determined. I also think this is usage in Australia. US usage may be fairground (eg, MN State Fair), but this is similar enough not to be confusing. I would avoid something overly generic such as event_ground because it will then start being used for all sorts of things which don't fall into the category of things which this tag is trying to address. We already have event_venue which is even more generic. SK53 (talk) 17:04, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Given further thought, I think that making this into a more generic "events ground" is a bad idea, given how it would require it to be much more loosely defined. Specific features immediately recognizable without going too deep into the OSM meta are generally more well received (and cause more consistent tagging) than broad catch-all features (think highway=path). --Popball (talk) 23:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
- You already defined amenity=exhibition_centre as " fulfills a similar purpose", and this as "hosting outdoor events including fairs and festivals ". Which means it is general. These are usually multipurpose. Making them too specific sets it up for failure. "Shows" can have difference connotations amenity=events_venue is used fine, and can be followed.
Already showground is commonly described to be for "events". So there's no difference in the end.
highway=footway is still used with bicycle=* and footway=* that modifies it. Ostensibly footway=crossing and footway=sidewalk are "Specific features immediately recognizable without going too deep into the OSM meta are generally more well received (and cause more consistent tagging)".
--- Kovposch (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
- You already defined amenity=exhibition_centre as " fulfills a similar purpose", and this as "hosting outdoor events including fairs and festivals ". Which means it is general. These are usually multipurpose. Making them too specific sets it up for failure. "Shows" can have difference connotations amenity=events_venue is used fine, and can be followed.
- Given further thought, I think that making this into a more generic "events ground" is a bad idea, given how it would require it to be much more loosely defined. Specific features immediately recognizable without going too deep into the OSM meta are generally more well received (and cause more consistent tagging) than broad catch-all features (think highway=path). --Popball (talk) 23:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
- Firstly, larger shows/fairs are substantial commercial events. Leisure tag is inappropriate. Showground is undoubtedly the current dominant usage in EN-GB which is how OSM tags are supposed to be determined. I also think this is usage in Australia. US usage may be fairground (eg, MN State Fair), but this is similar enough not to be confusing. I would avoid something overly generic such as event_ground because it will then start being used for all sorts of things which don't fall into the category of things which this tag is trying to address. We already have event_venue which is even more generic. SK53 (talk) 17:04, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Why not use "event" directly eg amenity=events_ground ? It's not limited to "shows". This helps show it's not leisure=* to include business. "Events" is common alongside MICE. USA has an Events Industry Council, and UK a Events Industry Board under the Tourism Industry Council. Your definition already is hosting "events". Consistency with amenity=events_venue is promoted, if not allowing for future unification of amenity=*_centre in amenity=events_centre to consolidate the amenity=conference_centre and amenity=exhibition_centre now. --- Kovposch (talk) 08:53, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- You bring up a good point. Having just a single tag for all outdoor event venues would probably cause misuse. Whereas amenity=event_ground + event_ground=showground would be only "true" showgrounds (or fairgrounds in American English). Then we could also define event_ground=festival_ground for festival grounds (like the Theresienwiese example currently on the proposal page). Is there any others which would be included right away? Subtagging in this way at least allows us to have more room for expansion since there are probably other types of event grounds that I don't know about (in some other country that I know little about perhaps). --Popball (talk) 10:56, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Other values used
When I looked a while back I found usage locally of the following:
amenity=showground
leisure=showground
amenity=show_ground
amenity=show_grounds
tourism=attraction;attraction=showground
amenity=festival_grounds
I'm not making a case for any of these being "correct" - just saying that they exist in the data. SomeoneElse (talk) 14:57, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
-- Something B (talk) 15:04, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for that info. It's definitely something to be expected when there is no established way to tag this kind of feature. It's definetely a good idea to document these, since if this gets approved, someone will probably want to update these. --Popball (talk) 19:58, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
Combination with sport=* ?
The proposal says amenity=showground should be used for open spaces that are used for outdoor events and do not have many permanent facilities. OTOH, for sports-oriented facilities leisure=sports_centre should be used. But there are also open spaces with few or no permanent facilities that are used for sports-oriented events.
I know of a meadow that is only used once a year for 4 days for an equestrian tournament / horse show with parties / music in the evenings. There are no fixed facilities except a fence around the area, which is then used as a show jumping arena (photo). 99 percent of the year the whole area is not used for anything else than other normal meadows (AFAIK), so I think it is inappropriate to map this area as a sports centre. Would it make sense to map it as amenity=showground + sport=equestrian? --Hufkratzer (talk) 17:31, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'd be more inclined to map the area for horse jumping as a leisure=pitch with sport=equestrian inside the larger showground area. At least that the impression the photo gives me. --Popball (talk) 11:50, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Subtag of landuse=recreation_ground?
Resolved I'm not opposed to this proposal, but I'm interested in why a new tag is preferred over approving the existing subtag (landuse=recreation_ground + recreation_ground=showground)? The reason I ask, is I suspect there will be a lot of people double-tagging leisure=showground + landuse=recreation_ground since there's such a big overlap. But either way, it'll be good to have an approved tag. Thanks --Kylenz 09:27, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, the subtag recreation_ground=showground is being deprecated because it is not a subtype of landuse=recreation_ground, at least in it's current state: "An open space for general recreation, which often includes formal or informal pitches, nets and other recreation equipment or infrastructure", therefore making that a type of trolltag. --Popball (talk) 13:01, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Okay sounds like there's a bit of a variety in how both tags are used internationally. --Kylenz 08:54, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware of this, but it's a substantially misleading tag. Often showgrounds will rent some of their open space to sports clubs ***providing*** it does not clash with their own event list, so part of a showground may also be a recreation ground, but only for some of the year. The areas used may be devoted to overflow parking of marquees when an event is taking place. For instance Oakham Rugby Club use the Rutland Showground. SK53 (talk) 16:59, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Okay sounds like there's a bit of a variety in how both tags are used internationally. --Kylenz 08:54, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Reference existing discussions
This topic has been discussed a number of times on talk-gb and possibly on other lists. I think this needs to reference prior discussions. SK53 (talk) 17:05, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- I've now added all the conversations I could find on the topic. Feel free to add more if you can find them. --Popball (talk) 11:44, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
What to do with marketplace
From what I gather, a open air marketplace (an open place where farmers and others gather weekly) could be mapped as a subtype of a "showground". Would it be necessary to add a new events_ground=* to the amenity=marketplace? Btw, this is a much needed tag, please don't let the proposal die! --AntMadeira (talk) 16:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why isn't amenity=marketplace enough?
—— Kovposch (talk) 11:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)- It can be enough, as it is now, but for those open air marketplaces, which take place in public areas otherwise used for other purposes, like a public square, this new tag could also be added. --AntMadeira (talk) 12:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Festival
I think that the envent_ground=festival_ground (please, mind the misspelled word) should be more explicit. There are many kinds of festivals. Would this be a music festival? If so, maybe event_ground=musical_festival. Other kinds of event_ground=*:
- Handicraft
- Organic Food
- Municipal Fair (usually multiporpose, kind of a fairground, with agricultural/rides/food stands, etc.)
- Gastronomy (dedicated only to local food stands)
- Multipurpose (the same place can be used for several different events during the year)
--AntMadeira (talk) 17:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- event_ground=festival_ground + festival=music ? Or event_ground=* can be changed to event=* , with either event=music directly (treat event=festival as generic) , or event=festival + festival=music .
event_ground=* could be used for whether it has permanent facilities etc instead. Otherwise, this needs another tag.
—— Kovposch (talk) 11:18, 14 August 2024 (UTC)- I like the event=* as a subtype. I don't know how it works in other countries, but if "festival" is a generic term which can encompass several kinds of events, it would be fair to use event=festival + festival=music or event=festival + festival=gastronomy, etc. With event=music maybe it would be useful to be more specific, like event=live_music. --AntMadeira (talk) 12:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Singular vs Plural
Can anyone remind me why amenity=event_ground vs amenity=events_ground as in amenity=events_venue ?
—— Kovposch (talk) 11:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)