Talk:Contribute map data/Archive 1

I removed link to Tagging FAQ

This page is from 2010, we have Map features, proposals and tag/value pages. Xxzme (talk) 15:01, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Introduction_to_OSM

I re-inserted the link, I don't know why it was deleted. --Cantho (talk) 19:01, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

OpenStreetMap is a social activity

I deleted the link since the page will propably be deleted. --Cantho (talk) 19:01, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Can we have the beginners' guide pages back please?

The new layout simply doesn't work for refererence. There seem to be a myriad of links, all pointing to each other, or to category pages. What's a new mapper supposed to do when they follow a link to a category? Read _all_ the pages? --SomeoneElse (talk) 16:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

if you talk about Category:Beginners' guide then titles with numbers are hardly better in this case

What's a new mapper supposed to do when they follow a link to a category filled with numbers? Read _all_ the pages to guess actual title of article?

we were replacing titles with numbers with real names before [1] I think we should continue doing this. Xxzme (talk) 17:13, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

We can sort content in any category regardless of their names using https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Category#Sort_key. 17:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It just reads like someone's thrown a bunch of links onto the page without any thought given to how someone will read it or how new contributors come to this page and how they will navigate through it. For example, the "Contribute map data" tab ought to be about contributing map data, but the topics under "Getting started" (the first heading) are not related to it at all. The first link, "Get Involved" is a step back - it first talks about adding notes. There's a place for that, but it's not on a page explaining how to contribute map data. "How We Map" is a great opinion piece explaining the ethos of the project, but it doesn't belong here.

renamed to "General topics" Xxzme (talk) 20:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The next link is the "Beginners' guide". That used to be a useful walkthrough, but it isn't any more. It's completely muddled - for example, "Pick your data collection technique" occurs after "Collect data", which makes no sense whatsoever. I suspect that if that page were submitted by a primary school pupil to their teacher there would be complaints about the quality of the writing. Apparently next "It could be helpful to know about Elements and Tags", despite the main OSM editor that new mappers will use taking great pains to ensure that they _don't_ need to know about elements and tags, at least not initially.

label renamed to "Sources of information" Xxzme (talk) 20:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

> Apparently next "It could be helpful to know about Elements and Tags", despite the main OSM editor that new mappers will use taking great pains to ensure that they _don't_ need to know about elements and tags, at least not initially

Well there simple thing you have to realize. Contribute map data is not guide to iD!!! or any other editor you think is "MAIN". Editor_usage_stats#by_number_of_edits. Xxzme (talk) 20:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not what I think that matters, nor the total number of edits by all users - it's the actual editor that _new users_ use that's important. Right now, for people mapping their local area that's mostly iD, with a smattering of P2 (for the IE users), JOSM and mobile editors such as Vespucci, but mostly iD. --SomeoneElse (talk) 21:04, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we talk about _new_ users. Who don't know iD or how to contribute really other than add road and POI. Why should we silent about alternatives they can pick during editing process using limitations of iD? Xxzme (talk) 21:09, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Because when I looked into it after iD because the default, it turned out that new users using iD made fewer new user errors than new users using other editors. See https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-September/068178.html .--SomeoneElse (talk) 21:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

> iD made fewer new user errors than new users using other editors

How this is relevant to how we should explain Contribute map data or Beginners' guide ("will show you how to add data to OpenStreetMap" and not "duplicate of iD integrated tutorial")

It makes no sense to me because iD editors do 2-5 times less edits. JOSM user will outperform iD user not only in error correction but also in adding details.'

Additionally JOSM users have to fixup broken relations and vandaled tags after yet another bug in iD or careless iD editor who never know what "tag" is.

Do you have any statistics on that or just some anecdotes? Just to be _absolutely_ clear, these pages are supposed to be targeted at new mappers, and new mappers using iD made (in 2013 when I looked at it) fewer errors than new mappers using other editors, per edit.--SomeoneElse (talk) 22:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

> Just to be _absolutely_ clear, these pages are supposed to be targeted at new mappers,

Which pages? Supposed by who?

The former name of all this content was "beginners' guide". It used to be designed to help new mappers contribute. I have genuinely no idea what you are trying to do with it now.--SomeoneElse (talk) 23:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

>The former name of all this content was "beginners' guide".

NO?

>I have genuinely no idea what you are trying to do with it now.

Exactly, you have no idea. Since you are not person who improves wiki or who makes small makes corrections over time.

What has the main page got to do with anything? We're talking about the beginners' guide here. It's also quite clear that your edits to the beginners' guide and related sections are not improving anything - they're making it harder to read, harder to follow and useless for its original purpose. I'd suggest that you stop editing the wiki and go out and map something instead - that way you'll understand what mappers need from the wiki, and stop think of the wiki as "it's own thing" that must somehow be "maintained" irrespective of anything else. --SomeoneElse (talk) 08:41, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

What is clear to me is that you make ~0 improments to Main namespace

And constantly repeating yourself with magical "purpose" of Beginners' guide which was clearly defined and not by you!

I doubt you are the person to teach me or anyone else with your pathetic 4.5k houses per 7 years of editing Xxzme (talk) 09:32, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

> and new mappers using iD made

Do you have statistics on that? New mappers are NOT using ANYTHING.

Yes, see https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-September/068178.html and links from there.--SomeoneElse (talk) 23:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of editors who use three editors at once depending per their environment? Will you count them as iD users too?

That's discussed in https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-September/068178.html too.--SomeoneElse (talk) 23:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Now write Beginners' guide or Contribute map data that will lets newbie to add new amenity=animal_shelter and healthcare=blood_donation

Current Beginners' guide will easily allow newbie to use Vespucci or OSMAnd as their first edits.

I could go on - I've talked only about the first 5 links of 43(!). I regularly answer questions from people on IRC and help.osm.org (sample relevant question https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/44738/is-there-a-good-manual-or-user-guide-available-for-osm), but there's no way I can point them at the wiki in its current state - it is simply not fit for purpose. It seems to have been maintained in parallel with the project mostly by people who have nothing to do with editing OSM itself but are just involved in the wiki (there are exceptions, but this does seem to be increasingly the case).

more offensive please Xxzme (talk) 20:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps it is possible to follow links from, say, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&oldid=1031379 somehow (which seems to be the last edit before things became unusable) and get to the early 2014 versions of the other pages such as http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Beginners_Guide_1.3.1&oldid=1006503 as well? That might be something that could be usable as a reference. --SomeoneElse (talk) 20:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It duplicates most stalemates at Editing Standards and Conventions. I wonder why who will ask you question "How to add node in line?" Xxzme (talk) 20:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I've no idea what you're trying to say there - it doesn't parse as English at all. --SomeoneElse (talk) 21:04, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Ideas from [2] were covered at Editing Standards and Conventions. We should deduplicate content first Wiki_guidelines#Duplication.

Ideas from mentioned link are trivial, unlike points in Editing Standards and Conventions. We should improve Editing Standards and Conventions instead of reviving [3].

Does it makes sense now? Xxzme (talk) 21:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Not really. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editing_Standards_and_Conventions suffers from many of the same problems - not really suitable for new mappers, overcomplicated, too prescriptive.--SomeoneElse (talk) 21:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

We can repeat this again, in hope that article will fix itself. Xxzme (talk) 21:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

So... update to this discussion. User:Xxzme had to be banned from the wiki due to his fast-paced messing up of wiki pages, and aggressive communication style, this discussion being a case in point. In fact looking over this discussion more closely, it makes me want to apologise to User:SomeoneElse for failing to ban him sooner. I hope this hasn't put you off working to improve the beginners guide.

In fact I was just taking a look at the Beginners' Guide, and seeing some mess from him still left there. See Talk:Beginners' guide#Some mess in 2015. Not sure why the above discussion happened on this page. Some navigation/page moving chaos no doubt.

-- Harry Wood (talk) 01:43, 20 December 2015 (UTC)