Talk:Key:cyclestreet

Extension

Inspired by the Bike Streets work done in Denver, I am trying to get people together to build a similar map here in Charlottesville. For now, I am going to use the cyclestreet=yes tag for residential streets with low speed limits and infrequent car travel to denote safe cycling routes in town. I feel this is warranted as there isn't a specified usage of the cyclestreet tag here in the United States as of yet, and I think that making a new tag for these streets isn't really necessary.

Does this seem like a reasonable extension of the tag, or too much of a stretch? Gnome Scout (talk)

Personally I think these are not cyclestreets. Many residential roads can be bicycle friendly, but they are not designed a as cycling route. A cyclestreet is designed for cyclists as main users and cars are secondary. I don't think that's the case in Denver. Maybe a tag like bicyle_friendly=yes would be better in those cases. A67-A67 (talk) 13:04, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

This key exists to tag the signed and official "bicycle street" designation, with actual rules and regulations. Bike Streets feels like mis-adopting this tag already, at a glance. -- Kovposch (talk) 13:14, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I think a bicycle_friendly=yes tag would be a better option, since there are no streets in the United States where cyclists are the "main users" as far as I'm aware. However, my understanding was that it was difficult to introduce the usage of a new tag into the lexicon of OSM. Is this not the case? --Gnome Scout (talk) 14:04, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

The tag cyclestreet=yes was also just started by using it in the Netherlands, mostly coordinated from the OSM Forum. When it became a widespread tag, it was documented on the wiki. There is an official proposal process, but many tags haven't followed it. The page Any tags you like also tells that you can just start using a tag, when you think it's needed. A67-A67 (talk) 16:24, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

"bicycle-friendly" would still be subjective, which is discouraged in principle. Better map the physical features, and start your own project to group them if you want to. Within OSM, perhaps you can use something like description=*. "bicycle-friendly" is only solid when there's a official/formal designation, like at least a national standard. Even then, it can remain uncertain and variable if it is only someone tagging the designation unofficially (using his own judgement) according to an established standard. This is a possible issue for quite a few tags. -- Kovposch (talk) 13:14, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Since "bicycle-friendly" would be imprecise, and the cyclestreet=yes tag has a specific, legal standard, perhaps a better tag would be to test a tag to integrate LTS (bicycle Level of Traffic Stress) ratings. This could be useful data for bicycle routing, particularly in regions where there is little to no bicycle infrastructure (i.e. most of the United States) while still adhering to a standard of sorts: http://www.northeastern.edu/peter.furth/research/level-of-traffic-stress/ --Gnome Scout (talk) 18:21, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

If you use a rating to calculate bicycle-friendlyness, you could maybe use that as key of your tag, like lts_rating=*. A67-A67 (talk) 07:37, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

My community has formally designated certain streets "bicycle boulevards" similar to many other communities in the US (see [1]). I think it would be useful to come up with a way to tag them. Unfortunately communities use different terminology. Also, "bicycle boulevard" is probably too close to the already used "bicycle road". The LTS ratings could be useful - my community commissioned ratings for all of our streets. Invidious (talk) 17:48, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Bike Streets usage

@Gnome Scout: Would you think we can record Bike Street's use while saying this is seen as "wrong"? -- Kovposch (talk) 11:21, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Resolved: Thanked -- Kovposch (talk) 11:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Units

@Bxl-forever: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:cyclestreet&oldid=1990447 "kph" is common English, not "proper English". "km/h" is the proper SI unit abbreviation in English. -- Kovposch (talk) 12:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

The SI symbol for kilometer per hour is indeed km/h, not kph. I've corrected it. A67-A67 (talk) 15:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm ok with using "kph". Only trying to tell him this. -- Kovposch (talk) 08:08, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Resolved: -- Kovposch (talk) 08:08, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Traffic sign

On a sidenote, the traffic sign looks as if the car is tailgating the cyclist

Red means it is restricted, same as many pedestrian priority and no overtaking signs. -- Kovposch (talk) 04:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

That is the car-centric way of viewing it, the cyclist-centric view is that the cyclist is the on that determines the speed on the road. -- Emvee (talk) 20:53, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Difference to bicycle_road=*

What is the difference between cyclestreet=* and bicycle_road=*?
Note, the access restriction in Germany was introduced just a few years ago.
If I got it right, the situation in Belgium is more or less the same as in Germany, Finland? and for all other countries this is no official regulation. --Skyper (talk) 10:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The difference is that bicycle_road=* is for Germany and has implied vehicle=no (all vehicles are prohibited) where as for cyclestreet=* (mainly Belgium and the Netherlands) that is not the case ---- Emvee (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The implication of vehicle=no in Germany was introduced some years ago and many streets have a vehicle=yes. We have (slight) different meanings per country on other tags. Just have a look at motorroad=*.
If it is an official regulation and quite similar but only the access tag is the problem, I vote for using one tag with concrete meaning per country instead of several similar tags which might even mix up different things like cyclestreet=* seems to do, ATM. --Skyper (talk) 21:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, it is a pity there are two different keys for almost the same thing. Altough there are more bicycle_road's mapped than cyclestreet's (currently 7910 versus 3942), for me, cyclestreet is a more literal translation of Fahrradstraße so would there be buy-in from German users for such a change? ---- Emvee (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

In my eyes, bicycle_road=* fits better to motorroad=* and living_street=* while cyclestreet=* is spoiled as the usage in the Netherlands differs already (no official regulation) and the usage in the USA is totally off. Looking at the history does not help. --Skyper (talk) 11:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't agree they are "almost the same thing". It's pretty clear in general one is bicycle-priority, while the other bicycle-vehicle-only by default. As a rough comparison on pedestrians, we have both living_street and pedestrian. -- Kovposch (talk) 11:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh, come on. Did you have a look at motorroad=*?
What happens if a legislative decides to change the access restriction to vehicle=destination? Do we need a new key? Or if the access definition in Belgium is changed, do we need to change the key on every way?
highway=living_street was/is a big mistake and living_street=* might be already have different meanings? Do not exactly know the definition and use per country. I am sorry but highway=pedestrian is again a bad example as it does not make a difference between the official traffic sign and its rules and an area with maybe some access restrictions. --Skyper (talk) 11:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Now, why you are over-interpreting my view and complaining to me? I was merely pointing out there's naturally at least 2 classes of a general concept here. I have no comments on your take on specific examples and proper implementation. I don't see why must your use motorroad=* as a talking point against me either. -- Kovposch (talk) 14:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, did not want to assault you. I use motorroad=* as it seems to be a tag of the same kind, and it is an example tag without dispute. I do not say that there is only one class of bicycle_roads but I'd say, atm, the border is at the wrong place. Bad examples to compare with will not work unless, you want to point to the mistakes of the past. I still did not get an answer why only the implied access tags should make the difference while it does not matter for cyclestreet=* if it is an official regulation (Belgium), an unofficial traffic sign (Netherlands) or even no special signs at all. How about the implied maxspeed=*? Why does it fall of the table but the access tag is relevant? --Skyper (talk) 12:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Routing-Software seems to disrespect the implied access tags, see Motorcar routing in bicycle roads.