Talk:Tag:man made=courtyard

Purpose

What is the point of this tag? courtyards are mappable by mapping building as multipolygon, what is the point of this tag? What is the benefit of using also this? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 15:05, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

I see it as an explicit descriptor tag, used instead of leaving an undescribed/empty inner area in a multi-polygon. Although the standard OSM map layer doesn't render this tag (yet), I could see it usefully being rendered similarly to highway=pedestrian, area=yes. This is perhaps particularly useful for larger courtyards and where additional tags can also be added (e.g., surface=*, name=* etc.). Additionally if the buildings haven't been mapped but the courtyard itself is a particular POI (say...it's a well known meeting place) then someone can just drop a node with this tag. Casey boy (talk) 16:14, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

In which case surface=* can be added and sufficient tags are insufficient? I expect that if entire surface can be described by one tag then we have some existing tagging for that

Why "used instead of leaving an undescribed/empty inner area in a multi-polygon" would be preferable over standard situation?

"Although the standard OSM map layer doesn't render this tag (yet)" why and how it would be even rendered anywhere?

"name=*" - if there is name courtyard and it cannot be mapped as square/pedestrian area then we should use place=locality (or invent place=courtyard and use it for just named ones). Idea of adding man_made=courtyard to millions of buildings seems quite absurd to me when extremely tiny minority is named (and not covered by other objects)

"Additionally if the buildings haven't been mapped but the courtyard itself is a particular POI (say...it's a well known meeting place) then someone can just drop a node with this tag." - is it really justifying mapping millions of courtyards in mapped buildings? Just map building in such case or use fixme=* or create note or use place=locality (or invent place=courtyard)

(@Casey boy:)Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 00:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Just to note, I created this page to document this tag's significant usage and the fact that this is an iD editor preset. I'm not the proposer of the tag but have used it on a couple of occassions.

However...

(1) I feel it makes to sense to use this tag, rather than have an empty inner area in some cases. A courtyard is a real "thing" and the purpose of OSM is map verifiable "things". Sure, a mapper could just leave the inner area of a multipolygon blank but if someone wants to map it as a courtyard, then why shouldn't they? A courtyard is a verfiable object, so can be worthy of explicitly mapping, and this tag already has widespread usage.

(2) Adding descriptor tags (e.g. surface=*) to area=yes just seems odd to me (even if not wrong). Why not be more specific about what these descriptor tag(s) apply to? We try to be specific in many other situations.

(3) Not all courtyards are the inner area of a multipolygon relation. For example, (i) multiple individual buildings may together form a shared/common courtyard or (ii) walls (or other barriers) may form one or more edges of a courtyard. The use of a multipolygon relation where the courtyard is simply the "cut-out" area doesn't work in such cases.

(4) Not all building "cut-out" areas are courtyards. By using this tag on areas that are actually courtyards avoids any ambiguity.

(5) Whilst I am not opposed to using place=courtyard, it is inventing a new tag over the use of an already in-use tag. Instead of using a tag with ~20k uses from all across the globe, with iD editor support, you're suggesting something that has no uses, anywhere. That doesn't make sense to me - unless there is a proposal process undertaken. Your other suggestion of place=locality is inconsistent with the definition of that tag. The locality tag is for tagging a place when "there is no extant feature to which the tag could be associated". A courtyard is an exant feature.

(6) No one is suggesting that you must add this tag to the "millions of buildings" (citation needed) that have courtyards. But if mappers want to, then they're free to.

Casey boy (talk) 11:22, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

My main problem with this tag is that it makes editing more complicated and confusing especially for newbies. I plan on checking existing tagging but I suspect that in many case it was used instead of proper multipolygon

Ad (2) - I suspect that in all cases of single surface it can be tagged as something, say landuse=grass or highway=pedestrian + area=yes

Ad (3), (4) - I am still confused what would be benefit of mapping courtyards that would justify increased complexity

Ad (5) - my comment here is partially probing whether deprecating man_made=courtyard would be a good idea and which replacement, if any, is needed

Ad (6) - either this tag is overall bad idea and should be deprecated or good idea and should be added to millions of buildings

Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 17:09, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I just discovered this tag via a bug report about removing its preset. [1] If I had known about this tag a few years ago, I would've used it instead of mistagging a pedestrian area inside a courtyard with the name of the courtyard itself. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 01:51, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1024706004 https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1024706003 - that is the first actual useful use of this tag that I encountered Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 01:55, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Well to me has bean helpful to tag a very common areas that are not gardens and are the back of multiple buildings https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/396483482 like this and planning to use in big farms that have a central courtyard. --Cyberlima785 (talk) 18:17, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Courtyard - when it is not fully enclosed by one or more buildings or walls?

Description has "usually fully enclosed by one or more buildings or walls" - when it is not? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:55, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

There's always an edge case. Perhaps a fence or hedge form part of the barrier or perhaps there is a small opening. That being said, we could remove usually if that is really of concern. Casey boy (talk) 16:52, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mateusz Konieczny: I've seen courtyards at schools where one side is a steep slope (but not a retaining wall). I suppose they could be mapped as leisure=schoolyard, but that tag isn't any more established than this tag. Unfortunately, I don't have a concrete example offhand. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 01:00, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Is it intended to be used for surroundings of home?

I am trying to investigate use of this tag and I see many uses similar to https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/855308248 - is it something that was intended or a mistake? (see overall state in this area: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1eKX ) Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:57, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest such use is not really consistent with this tag (or the Wiki definition). However, "courtyard gardens" do exist (1,2, 3) which may be what the mapper was trying to indiciate. Though it would possibly be better to use the garden tagging scheme for this. Casey boy (talk) 16:59, 6 January 2022 (UTC)