Proposal talk:Building inlet

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Building and sprinkers

Resolved

Sprinklers can similarly be wet, dry, pre-action, etc. So this categorization isn't comprehensive. Furthermore, the same "riser" term is used for their pipe. The semantics is mixed up, and the word is meaningless.

emergency=building_inlet on its own is not clear it is a firefighting water inlet. Could it be an air intake??? (For smoke control)

Although "standpipe" is clearer, it is not obvious what it is, and is a US term not applicable for OSM British English and international usage. I suggest emergency=fire_water_inlet, as "fire main inlet" seems to be used by CIBSE, IFE, BS standard, FPA, NFCC, and the UK government (notably including Grenfell Tower fire investigation). (Don't know if LPC rules mentions this) This phrase is listed on the original Proposed_features/Dry_riser_inlet#Comments.

fire_water_inlet:*=* may look too long. Using fire_mains=* (again UK standard, plus EN and ISO for EU and the world; also in DIN for Germany) and fire_sprinkler=* for *=dry and *=wet (as well as fire_sprinkler=pre-action etc) directly would allow this info to recorded on the building=*, extending their use to the facility's equipment.
--- Kovposch (talk) 06:59, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Sure, we can change it to emergency=fire_water_inlet. Do you have a photo of the signage for different types of sprinkler inlets? I think the tagging needs to match what the signage says, otherwise it'll be too hard to pick an option --Kylenz 00:28, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
No, I mean the sprinkler system itself can be either dry (although commonly not allowed anymore), wet, or pre-action. "Riser" is used for sprinklers at the same time. So "Dry riser" and "wet riser" is ambiguous. The term you need is fire mains.
However, I can find an example of separate connection for deluge sprinklers for transformers at a substation. This is also an example of combination hydrant standpipe & sprinkler riser. https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-pair-of-double-combination-standpipe-and-sprinkler-system-dry-risers-23820270.html
--- Kovposch (talk) 12:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Right, so you're suggesting something like fire_mains=yes/no/wet/dry and fire_sprinkler=yes/no/wet/dry/pre-action? (where yes is the least useful value) --Kylenz 02:05, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
1 👍 Kovposch (talk)
I second this option and encourage to keep the emergency=fire_water_inlet on top of fire_mains=* and fire_sprinkler=*. We're not actually mapping the whole system but only its inlet. Fanfouer (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I meant. The shortcoming is emergency=fire_water_inlet not named nicely as a compromise, to include both rising mains and sprinklers.
Subsequently below, I'm convinced non-water-based system connection are common enough. Therefore I now abandon emergency=fire_water_agent, and am seeking a better name.
--- Kovposch (talk) 06:17, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Done, sorry for the delay in updating the page. @Kovposch:, how about just emergency=fire_inlet? --Kylenz 23:41, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
We changed it to emergency=fire_service_inlet --Kylenz 03:44, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Namespaces

Resolved

I suggest to abandon the namespaces and use one fire_water_inlet=dry_rser/wet_riser/splinker_connection tags. IMHO, it's easier. Something B (talk) 09:29, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

This doesn't work. Rising mains and sprinkler inlets can be the same in a combination standpipe and sprinkler connection. Which is more integrated than the last case in Proposal_features/Building_inlet#Examples with separate. Can't be solved with 2 objects.
https://nfsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Terin_Combination-system-Blog-Hopikns-pic-1.jpg
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-combination-standpipe-and-sprinkler-rockefeller-center-manhattan-new-15995506.html
As I said above, the val don't work either. That's why I suggested using fire_mains=* and fire_sprinkler=* directly.
--- --- Kovposch (talk) 11:58, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Done, as per the discussion above --Kylenz 23:41, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

missing tagging - suggestions for buildings

Resolved

There are more extinguishing systems than just sprinkler systems. e.g. foam extinguishing systems or inerting extinguishing systems. These are missing here. What would be the tagging suggestions in these cases? I am also missing the tagging suggestions for the extinguishing agent, which should be independent of the extinguishing system. --Plennert (talk) 17:34, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't like any of the tagging suggestions mentioned, because most of them are too long, not intuitive and from my point of view not technical terms. In my opinion, further thought should be given to this.--Plennert (talk) 17:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

For example, an extinguishing agent supply, also better known as an extinguishing water supply, has nothing to do with the term "fire". This is purely about the extinguishing agent. This can be, and in most cases is, water. But it can also be carbon dioxide or foam.

Therefore I would leave emergency=sprinkler_connection, as pure designation of the connection point for the feed of extinguishing water into the sprinkler system. What happens behind it, i.e. whether the line is wet or dry, could be described with dry_riser_inlet=wet/dry. However, from my point of view, this is not absolutely necessary in the first place, since it is "only" the connection point. The tag dry_riser_inlet=wet/dry belongs to the line behind the connection point, which leads to the extinguishing system.

There are also sprinkler_connections that do not lead to a sprinkler system, but are used to flood individual rooms, such as manure silos.--Plennert (talk) 17:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

1. Because this proposal is about the inlet for water, not foam or CO2.
and that is exactly what I do not find complete in this proposal. --Plennert (talk) 22:38, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok, then emergency=fire_extinguishing_agent_inlet??? --- Kovposch (talk) 05:41, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
@Kylenz: Also if you are open to more changes, ideally need to find a word to solve foam and other suppressant. Then the optional default of substance=water, or substance=foam when needed can be added.
Apparently "fire service inlet" is also used. This is more agnostic and appropriate.
I don't like "Fire water inlet" much anyway. So emergency=fire_service_inlet and fire_service_inlet=* will be a better improvement.
--- Kovposch (talk) 18:27, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Okay, I've changed it to emergency=fire_service_inlet and added a note about substance=* --Kylenz 03:44, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

2. As mentioned, there are combination standpipe and sprinkler connections. So separating them won't work.

For use in Germany, however, it must be separated. We have to offer a solution for this.

3. Is it about water mist fire suppression, or something else? I intentionally left everything else out, including deluge. They are more complex, and not directly related to the dry vs wet vs pre-action distinction here. And then there is the deluge and sprinkler connection example above. Kovposch (talk) 10:18, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I have the following suggestion. Basically remove "fire" in all tags, for the sake of clarity, makes it easier to read.

For the connection, i.e. the supply point, replace emergency=sprinkler_connection with emergency=supply_point or more simply with emergency=inlet. Since the inlet does not necessarily have to be at a building, I would remove "building". This can then be used to describe everything else.

supply_point=water/foam/co2 or inlet=water/foam/co2 This describes the extinguishing agent connection, as a different connection type is required for each extinguishing agent. The extinguishing agent used then follows automatically from this. If you want to enter the extinguishing agent separately, you can do this, for example, with extinguishing:medium=water/foam/co2.

It must be remembered that in Germany wet connections to the sprinkler system are not permitted.

With supply_point:typ=dry_riser/wet_riser/sprinkler_connection or inlet:typ=dry_riser/wet_riser/sprinkler_connection the rest can be defined.--Plennert (talk) 22:38, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

1. But then this is not clearly about firefighting. As I asked above, is emergency=inlet a fresh air intake for smoke control?
2. inlet=* is already used for the structure. emergency=fire_extinguisher is set to be "de facto", but the article has no documentation, and discussions for Talk:Tag:emergency=fire_extinguisher#Extinguisher_type is not settled. There are only 32 extinguishing:medium=*. Was there any reason not to use substance=*?
More details at taginfo
.
--- Kovposch (talk) 06:07, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
2. Is there a need to show inlet for different agents in a mix? If so, eg substance=* (connection) + fire_mains:substance=* / fire_sprinkler:substance=* is a possibility. Eg foam-water. https://twitter.com/attractions/status/1312862862398849025 --- Kovposch (talk) 06:12, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi @Plennert:, FYI I've updated the proposal based on previous suggestions. I think this addresses a few of your comments --Kylenz 23:41, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
I've marked this as resolved since I didn't here back from you. I think eveything you mentioned has been covered now --Kylenz 08:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Advanced Tagging

1. Water supply without connections to buildings

Resolved

In rural areas without adequate water supply, there are fire_hydrants that are fed by solid water pipes which have a "fire_water_inlet" at the other end of the pipe. The inlets are constructed like hydrants, but water is not drawn from them, only fed in. Like hydrants, there are underground and pillar versions. Possible solution:
fire_water_inlet:type=pipe|pillar|wall|underground

Do you have example photos of how those pillars look? --- Kovposch (talk) 14:39, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
At minimal, fire_hydrant=yes needs to be added, similar to fire_mains=* and fire_sprinkler=*. Again, it needs to be discussed together with emergency=fire_hydrant, especially because fire_hydrant=* overlaps with fire_hydrant:type=* and pillar:type=* if following the format here. --- Kovposch (talk) 15:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
https://ibb.co/WpnWfV7 Pillar. The sign (Löschwassereinleitung für die Feuerwehr) means „Fire-water-inlet for the fire brigade“
https://ibb.co/17J7gLq Underground. The sign (Löschwasser Einspeisung Vockrath) means „Fire-water-inlet“. Vockrath is the name of a farmyard, https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/101529333
For more details see below.
In my opinion fire_hydrant=yes should not be added. There is no accepted solution for combining inlet and hydrant. For test reasons I created this one: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/13311265
--Rempshaener (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Why not a simple fire_hydrant=yes?
type=pipeline may be applicable. (It is a variation from route=pipeline, similar to type=power from route=power)
--- Kovposch (talk) 08:47, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
type=route + route=pipeline is a popular and appropriate solution. I've made a note on the page that fire_water_inlet:type=* could be used, equivilant to fire_hydrant:type=* --Kylenz 08:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
Ok I don't like that. I had some ideas.
--- Kovposch (talk) 11:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The current set of values for support=* seems too limited if you want to distinguish between flush vs protruding wall-mounted inlets. So I guess a new tag like fire_water_inlet=* is a good approach. Does * imply that the inlet is covered by glass or a door? If not, people may want a way to specify this --Kylenz 12:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
It's more of a responsibility in man_made=street_cabinet. Not highly necessary to handle it here, and maybe fire installation can be assumed as glass door? The difficulty is you would need a further door:material=* here, to not mix up material=* as for the box itself.
Very peculiar Tag:man_made=street_cabinet#Tagging has hinge=*, but no door=*, or whether it is applicable when not a building=*.
I have been using transparent=* myself for other things, as I'm unsure whether those are material=glass or plastic (perspex / plexiglass / acrylic / PMMA, polycarbonate, transparent PVC, etc). It's not well-defined yet, nor docuemented.
--- Kovposch (talk) 19:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
As discussed above, I've added a note about fire_service_inlet=*. Not sure if it's worth defining a specific set of values...? --Kylenz 03:44, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
I think it's fine as is ("fire_service_inlet=* [...] has the same possible values as fire_hydrant:type=*.). Any further comments or ideas? --Kylenz 03:22, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

2. Couplings

Resolved

Similar to hydrants, this information would be helpful:
couplings=*
couplings:type=*
couplings:diameters=*
More Details: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dfire_hydrant --Rempshaener (talk) 18:20, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good, do you think it makes sense to use fire_hydrant:type=* on these nodes, or create a new tag fire_water_inlet:type=* with the same possible values as fire_hydrant:type=*? --Kylenz 06:08, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
You should use fire_water_inlet=* directly. It is already freed up by separating to fire_mains=* and fire_sprinkler=*. It's not an emergency=fire_hydrant either.
However, the variety in fire_hydrant:type=* doesn't fit nicely to normal building inlets for fire_water_inlet=*. The most common *=wall for us here is yet not clear whether it is exposed on wall, or inside a panel. More importantly, it doesn't show whether the FDC is flush (flat plate covering the embedded body) or exposed (body outside).
The problem with *=pipe and *=pillar is for someone unfamiliar with the equipment as me, I can't decide which to use for free-standing FDC.
Eg are these *=pillar or *=pipe?
  1. https://www.croker.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=111
  2. https://wamyhsahn.com/product/four-and-six-way-free-standing-fire-dept-inlet-connection/
  3. https://www.americanfiresupply.com/fire-department-connections/free-standing-inlet-fire-dept-connection
  4. https://www.dreamstime.com/fire-hose-valves-standpipes-corner-modern-building-fire-valves-stand-outside-modern-building-giving-fire-image234824729
And we can look through more in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Fire_sprinkler_connections and https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Standpipes_(firefighting) for examples.
So I'm unsure of their applicability. There may even be "pipes" extending out from walls, not only the connection body.
I'm afraid using *=underground here will be confusing as whether it is the FDC for building's underground.
I need to think more about it. Frankly It is less relevant to buildings, and should be discussed with emergency=fire_hydrant tagging. --- Kovposch (talk) 15:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Sure a fire_water_inlet is not a fire_hydrant. But, as standpipes often are only something like solid waterhoses, they have similar features. So they should not be treated completely different. You are right, „the variety in“fire_hydrant:type=* doesn't fit nicely to normal building inlets for fire_water_inlet=*“. But: Standpipes are not only used in normal buildings, they are used in subwaystations, for castles without sufficient water supply, for storage tanks etc. The pics above were taken in my neighbourhood. There is no wall, the inlets are on the lane or on the green.
If this use cases are not included in the proposal, I think the tag emergency=fire_water_inlet will cause problems.
Nevertheless, if we do not use the fire_water_inlet:type,
couplings=*
couplings:type=*
couplings:diameters=*
would be important.
--Rempshaener (talk) 20:15, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I've updated the page to mention couplings --Kylenz 06:10, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

not true

You write: Currently, the wiki suggests using emergency=dry_riser_inlet for any kind of firefighting inlet[1][2], which is misleading given that the tag name includes the words "Dry Riser". --- this is not true, the tag is defined for dry inlets not for all kind of inlets. --Dieterdreist (talk) 23:05, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi again, example [1] defines "fire department connection" as a synonym of "dry riser inlet", suggesting that this tag can be used for any type of "fire department connection (FDC)". Example [2] suggests emergency=dry_riser_inlet for (any) Löschwassereinspeisung, not just for a trockenes Steigleitungsystem, for which there seem to be specific words[1]. This proposal hopefully prevents any possible confusion, and has a few other benefits which we've talked about before. --Kylenz 06:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for the explantation, I agree that the article could indeed have been misleading, although it still stated that the tag is for dry riser inlets only. I have reworded the page and deemphasized the wikipedia article link by moving it from the definition to the see also section. --Dieterdreist (talk) 08:41, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
  1. ↑ https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steigleitung#Brandschutz
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