Proposal talk:Markers subject refinement
Syntax
As I might have said before, subject=* can be a freeform text, as recorded in Proposed_features/Subject#Rationale. This means it can be used as eg subject=Nord Stream 2 + subject:wikidata=Q21644350 for individual subjects. So I should have suggested at least pipeline:subject=* if this is to be used for pre-defined.
Perhaps eg pipeline:object=* , following object:*=* from object:street=* etc. But I will emphasize I don't like "object" due to vagueness. --- Kovposch (talk) 22:27, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
The proposal is currently pretty confusing. It acknowledges that subject=* already exists and proceeds to propose an incompatible syntax for it. If the purpose of this key is to indicate what kind of infrastructure the marker indicates, how about marker:for=* or marker:marks=*? There is precedent for using a verb or preposition as a subkey in the absence of a more fitting noun. Alternatively, if the idea is that other things besides markers may need a similar key in the future, how about subject:type=*, by analogy with operator:type=*? – Minh Nguyễn 💬 01:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I did suggest marker:for=* at first in other discussions. Then starting thinking better suffixes for it.
I don't find subject:type=* enough to solve the same problem found in artwork_subject=*, museum=*, and memorial:subject=* for separating the specific entity and its categories.
--- Kovposch (talk) 04:35, 18 April 2023 (UTC)- That is very valid points thank you, we'll think about that to improve the proposed solution. By the way, :type suffix should be avoided, we'll find a more precise term for that if needed. Fanfouer (talk) 07:35, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Two other options come to my mind: topic=* and purpose=* with same values as proposed now. topic=* is interesting to combine with subject=*: topic=pipeline + subject=Nord Stream 2. Fanfouer (talk) 15:05, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- "Topic" and "subject" might be too easy to mix up, since they translate to exactly the same word in some languages, but at least topic=* seems to be used for roughly this purpose already. In an ideal world, the more specific usage of subject=* would've been called referent=* instead, but we're far too late for that kind of change. Another option would be to accept that subject=* and subject:wikidata=* can be broad sometimes and specific sometimes, but this means you wouldn't be able to query for all pipeline markers without knowing that Nordstream 2 is a pipeline (using Wikidata, for example). – Minh Nguyễn 💬 03:11, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Fanfouer: A "referent" is the specific thing that something refers to. Intuitively, a given sign or marker's referent would be more specific than its subject/topic. So while there's nothing technically stopping us from using referent=* for the subject, it would be semantically backwards. When giving the fields human-readable names in English or any other language, editor developers would have to decide whether to align the terms "subject" and "referent" with literal keys or plain English; either option would prove confusing for a different audience. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 19:29, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
The proposed key has a lot in common with message=*: the marker is communicating a message that [insert value here] is nearby. Or perhaps marker:message=* if there's any concern about mixing the advertising message categories with the pipeline message categories. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 06:45, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oh that one is very interesting, thank you. I wasn't aware about it. Well, I'll have a little more thinking about that while on weekend Fanfouer (talk) 22:23, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Fire hydrant
I don't agree it is utility=water simply because they use water, as I have been questioning the content vs activity differentiation. What is the utility=* of foam hydrants, or {a {tag|marker}} for gaseous fire suppressant equipment??? They are emergency=* features, and not very related to utility=* as a whole. --- Kovposch (talk) 22:27, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- I understand, hydrants are sourced by the municipal water supply, which is operated by a utility company. This Deprecate utility=hydrant in favour of utility=water + subject=hydrant seems overreaching though. Not sure, hydrants are candidates for emergency, as they are of no us to lay persons, instead trained fire brigades. But why subject? --Hungerburg (talk) 23:38, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- It's not hydrants that get utility=* currently, only the markers. And in several countries, these markers are regulated in regard of main water connection (and display information about those mains), then utility=water sounds legit. Markers nor hydrant are forced to get utility=*, then foam or dry fire outlets won't be covered obviously.
- subject=* (or whatever proposed) is dedicated to markers, not hydrants themselves. subject=hydrant tell people this marker refers to a near hydrant, that's all. Fanfouer (talk) 07:33, 18 April 2023 (UTC)