Talk:Tag:historic=wayside shrine

Paper Map Symbols (christian)

Forum discussion

At the moment we are discussing in the german forum about wayside_cross, wayside_shrine and chapel: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=61237

1) OSM historic doesn't mean always old feature. The tag historic=* is used to identify subjects that relate to human history and for commemorative structures (historic=memorial) Source: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Historic

2) you can not enter a wayside shrine. if there is room for at least 1 person, use shrine (or chapel for christian buildings). use wayside_chapel if there is room for 1 operator for cleaning and decoration (only christian wayside shrine)

3) wayside_shrine can belong to every religion/denomination

4) a shinto building ist not always a object for worship

5) a historic=wayside_cross can be a new feature. there is no need to use man_made=cross for new christan crosses

--wilmaed 8 February 2018

users:Germany is not just a german speaking forum, it is a forum for users in Germany. That's definitely not the right place for tagging discussions, and it's really bad habit to make decisions on tagging rules there and present them here. --Fkv (talk) 13:29, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

So the first picture in the page is actually a building=shrine and should be removed. Aceman444 (talk) 21:08, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

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The biggest problem with this tag is that "historic" is absolutely misleading. We need to distinguish chapels, crosses, religious picture trees (Marterl) to be able to match current printed maps. Many of them are not at all historic, and better described by a generic "place of worship" with a kind descriptor. Katzlbt 07:06, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

See Also: P_O_W

Agreed. Also not all shrines are wayside shrines. Shrines can be domestic, can be found in forests and all kinds of other places. Indigomc (talk) 16:52, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes the historic tag is misleading.A related discussion was happening here Talk:Tag:building=shrine and here Talk:Tag:amenity=place_of_worship#Wayside_shrines --Muzirian (talk) 09:25, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

These are different kinds of shrines, not was is meant by historic=wayside_shrine. I wouldn't use historic=wayside_shrine for anything that is large enough for a human to enter. That would be a building=chapel for christian religion, and maybe building=shrine for asian religions. --Fkv (talk) 12:02, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

How to classify wayside statues of Virgin Mary?

In some parts of France, we have a lot of statues of Virgin Mary usually along roads.

Could be:

• historic=wayside_shrine
• wayside_shrine=statue
• subject:wikidata=Q1938795

--Pyrog (talk) 11:08, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Statues like this are common here in Austria too. Not only Mary, but also Nepomuk, Florian, and other saints. --Fkv (talk) 11:50, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure if these are shrines in a strict sense, although they are depicted as shrines (using the same signature) in conventional maps. Maybe we can combine historic=wayside_shrine with tourism=artwork + artwork_type=statue? --Fkv (talk) 16:19, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

In Poland objects like this are commonly tagged with historic=wayside_shrine. Adding tourism=artwork + artwork_type=statue makes sense Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 22:11, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I would distinguish those in a niche or in another covered space (wayside_shrine), from the freestanding statues. --Dieterdreist (talk) 09:27, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Actually those statues could also be historic=memorial + memorial=statue. After all, they are not abstract artworks but commemorate real historic people. As when there is a statue of a president, king or a war hero. Aceman444 (talk) 21:08, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

There is modest use of statue=virgin —Dieterdreist (talk) 21:58, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

wayside_chapel

Can somebody explain what is the point of recent edit making changes like "historic=wayside_chapel for a christian wayside shrine"? Why wayside shrine should be tagged as wayside chapel, with wayside shrine tag available? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 11:53, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

As far as I know, the tag historic=wayside_chapel was invented (but never documented) by fellow Austrian mapper Walter Schlögl. He has been using this tag for chapels which are too small to hold a mass inside. In my opinion, this should be tagged with building=chapel, while chapels big enough to hold a mass should be tagged with building=church, because that's what they are physically. While we can argue about the distinction between chapels and churches, the distinction between chapels and wayside_shrines is quite clear: A chapel contains enough space for a human to enter, while a wayside_shrine is only big enough to insert or attach some artifacts. There may be chapels which are built inside a rock, but chapels are usually building, and therefore they should get a building=* tag. I am not happy that one or two people started using historic=wayside_chapel instead and thereby creating a tagging chaos. In taginfo, I see that the new tag has spread over other parts of Europe, particularly Belgium and some spots in Germany. I wonder how they came to know about that tag, as there has never been a proposal for it. As all of those mappers seem to use JOSM, I guess that someone added historic=wayside_chapel to a JOSM template in order to make the tag widely used, so they can document it in the wiki as a standard tag without the effort to pass a proposal process. --Fkv (talk) 13:12, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

. --Fkv (talk) 13:12, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

The operator of a wayside_chapel can enter the building to decorate the room, there is a door to the ground. But there is no worship in the building. This is not the definition/description of a chapel and not the definition of a wayside_shrine. In german this hybrid has the name Kapellenbildstock: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildstock#/media/File:Rohr_Kapellenbildstock_bei_der_Schupfn.JPG The value wayside_shrine is in use and widespread. Shall the wikipedia descripe the current tagging?

. --wilmaed 15:21, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Objects as depicted in your sample photo are simply called Kapelle in German, and that's how they are mapped in all maps that have ever existed. E.g. www.amap.at => zoom in => click at "Legende" => "Einzelsignaturen". There has never been a map symbol for something between a Bildstock (wayside_shrine) and a Kapelle (chapel). Any other terms (such as Tabernakelbildstock, Lichtsäule, Kapellenbildstock) are subclassifications and jargon used by experts only.

With wikipedia you probably mean the osm wiki, as Wikipedia is an independent project. You are right in that the value wayside_shrine is in use and widespread. There's no question about it being documented in the OSM wiki, and it has been documented for ages, as opposed to historic=wayside_chapel, which should be documented as a common tagging error at best. --Fkv (talk) 15:54, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

What about building=chapel and amenity=place_of_worship for all freestanding chapels? Chapels are either "wayside" or part of a structure / building (building:part), I don't see a need for historic=wayside_chapel, but would like to distinguish chapels from wayside shrines (i.e. smaller objects. Because if they were bigger, the way would lead to them, rather then seeing them as on the side of the way). --Dieterdreist (talk) 09:33, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

"amenity=place_of_worship for all freestanding chapels" this is clearly wrong, not all chapels are used as a place of worship Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for not being more precise, I was implying for chapels that are used as such—Dieterdreist (talk) 21:11, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Also some shrines may be PoW - there is already ("Shrine where religious services are conducted is also amenity=place_of_worship and this tag also should be added. Note that only some shrines qualify for that. ") in an article. Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:34, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

"tourism=attraction if it is a tourist attraction"

What is wrong with that? Some wayside shrines are tourism attractions, some are not and it is useful to distinguish this Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:35, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Were any of them built for tourists, or intended to attract tourists? Are there examples of signage or some sort of objective characteristic that can be used to determine if the tag should be added? --Jeisenbe (talk) 05:05, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Some of them become tourism attractions in way not intended/expected by their builders (secular tourism), some were intended to be visited by pilgrims (some are visited by mix of secular admirers and people visiting for religious reasons), there is also religious based tourism. Typical hint about tourism attraction is including but not limited to

1. information boards directed to tourists
2. inclusion on trails with local attractions
3. inclusion on lists of tourism attractions
4. visits by organized groups and individual tourists

Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 11:51, 15 October 2020 (UTC)