Proposal talk:Alleyway

Definition and contrasting

I suggest changing this:

all or some motorcars ... may physically not be able to pass

To this:

most motorcars ... may not be able to pass safely without having to slow down significantly due to the narrow width

Safety when passing requires lateral clearance. Many local governments publish new street plans defining such margins, which can be the basis for more localized adjustments for this new type of street. Where absent, we may propose some general guideline based on what we've seen so far in various places. This may vary and is usually no more than 50 cm on each side, but it is not zero.

I think the following needs to be contrasted with the definition of highway=living_street:

In an alleyway, pedestrians typically have to share the space with bicycles, mopeds, motorcycles and maybe tiny cars or other vehicles.

In alleys, pedestrians and vehicles technically (legally) share space, but vehicles tend to avoid them anyway because of the narrow width, so the usual conflicts between these modes are rare in practice. Living streets, like highway=pedestrian are typically wider, street-like ways with restrictions defined by signage.

Let's also add some of the other good examples from various countries mentioned in these threads.

I think if motorcars have to slow down because the road is narrow, it could be still a residential street. In an alley they might get stuck, and they will already be slow, also with motorcycles or mopeds they would have to be very slow or it would be reckless.

The living street concept is very different, opposite I'd say, because it is clearly signposted and delimited, implying specific special rules, while alleys are often the contrary, no or few signs so it is a road with generic rules.

I am open to include more pictures if you post the exact link.

--Dieterdreist (talk) 21:49, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

In an alley [motorcars] might get stuck For clarity, a car may get stuck between obstacles less than 2m apart, and may be blocked by a stopped car in wider ways. A wider threshold, ~4m (+0.5m clearance on each side for turns) is what I had in mind, and also what other mappers seemed to have in mind when using service=alley in various places and situations. Many motorised  "world" alleys do not fit the proposed definition, as their overall width is greater than 2m. This may not be a common problem where there is predominant motorcycle traffic (many parts of Asia), but it is elsewhere (Europe, North America, most of South America and the Middle East, parts of Africa). Also, motorcycle "lanes" (designed primarily for motorcycle traffic) seem like something different to me and may deserve their own highway type. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I would add these as examples of foot alleys (no signage, currently mapped as highway=footway) for contrast:

• 

  Vicolo Baciadonne, Cittá della Pieve, Italy

• 

  Kranensteeg, Deventer, Netherlands

I would also have mapped the following cases as alleys, as they are much narrower than most other local ways around them (where two cars fit side by side), but they do not fit the proposed definition as they are wider than 2m:

• 

  Passage des Arts, Paris, France

• 

  Hintere Gasse, Gmünd, Austria

• 

  Soi Chana Songkhram, Bangkok, Thailand

• 

  Travessa Arlindo Lopes, São José do Egito, Brasil

--Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

path not suiteable for built-up areas?

You should explain, why path is not suiteable for these cases? --Langläufer (talk) 14:20, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

It is generally discouraged, especially where the intended main use is more clear. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:40, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

For what cases path is discouraged? Does this fit to the path wikipage? --Langläufer (talk) 15:02, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

The idea is to have a distinction between generally usable by motor vehicles and generally not usable by motor vehicles because the former are roads and the latter are not. A path can have many different aspects, but nearly all countries have decided to default them to not accessible by motor vehicles, i.e. they are not considered roads. These alleyways on the other hand, are streets in all aspects, just that they are narrower than what you expect a regular street to be, up to the point that there is a significant change in the way it is, because some vehicles cannot access any more due to physical aspects. --Dieterdreist (talk) 15:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Danke Dieter - das hab ich jetzt verstanden ;) --Langläufer (talk) 15:08, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

small streets

How to tag small streets where small double tracked vehicle fit? --Langläufer (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

highway=alleyway +

width=* +

maxwidth=* if there is signage +

Transport mode restrictions according to signage or local laws. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:35, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Definition

Typically it is delimited by buildings and walls, retaining walls or fences.

It could be technically also a railing/guardrail on a bridge, grass/earth on the sides of a concrete path or simply nothing for suspended build paths. I will collect some photo samples. --julcnx (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

In Europe, most of these are there for historical reasons (medieval settlement structure).

Can you add something like "In Asia, they often serve as pathways through dense urban environments with limited space, where motorcycle ownership and usage is very common." --julcnx (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I added the sentence about Asia, but do not want to add grass/earth because it weakens the idea. It says "typically" which means others are possible. --Dieterdreist (talk) 21:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Delimitation

For narrow ways outside of settlements (connection network of ways that are too narrow for motorcars), highway=path should be used.

I would not restrict strictly to settlements. For instance, narrow highway (major roads) underpass are common in Asia. Would that be considered a "built-up" environment? --julcnx (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Also it should be mentioned that dirt paths used for agriculture/forestry in remote / rural areas should also use highway=path. --julcnx (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the underpass is eventually not covered by the tag, at least "alleyway" quakes awful for it, so it could be path (particularly in countries where motorcycle access is the default, Thailand). I agree that mentioning only connecting ways was not ideal and have removed it so that the sentence becomes simpler and encompasses more. --Dieterdreist (talk) 22:01, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

How about using highway=narrow instead? I’d like to see those concrete underpasses and overpasses included in this proposal, as they’re similar to urban ways and quite different from rural, remote, or informal paths. --julcnx (talk) 10:17, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Naming Alternatives =

Confusion with service=alley

I must say I really dislike the tag value "alleyway" here. Already the delimitation between this new proposed highway class and highway=service + service=alley is a bit vague to my eyes: is it width alone or must it function as primary access to buildings too? But naming the new class a synonym of alley (explicitly so in the Definition section!) will only confuse the matter further. I would expect that if this is approved there would be widespread mistagging of legitimate service=alley ways as highway=alleyway ways (I could barely type that correctly myself!). To be honest, I don't see a strong need for a new top-level highway=* tag, given all the difficulties that presents and the existence of width=* tags. But if the prevailing consensus calls for one, it should really have a name that more clearly reflects its function and differentiates it from the existing usage of alley in OSM. Maybe something like highway=narrow_street? --Willkmis (talk) 06:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I think width is not distinguishing highway=service with service=alley from highway=alleyway, it is function. There are different types of "alleys" in the world and people are arguing that highway=service means the OSM type of alley is the North-American one, because otherwise it would not be a service road. So if the street leads to front doors, connects other streets, etc., it cannot be tagged with highway=service. --Dieterdreist (talk) 22:18, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree. From the forum discussion, it's clear that readers assumed `highway=alleyway` would address the controversial use of `service=alley`. To avoid this confusion, a different name for this proposal would be better. --julcnx (talk) 15:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Since the tag is meant for 'narrow urban paths that are legal for small motor vehicles' and aims to differentiate from the generic `highway=path`, I suggest using a prefix like 'motor,' such as `highway=motorpath`, or focusing on motorcycles with `highway=motorcycleway`. --julcnx (talk) 15:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I think motorpath is a good name for extraurban ways, ways on bridges, ways through fields for agricultural use, etc. which are legal for small motor vehicles, and it makes sense to have a distinct class for it. You will likely want to see these earlier than alleyways, together with unclassified roads. The alleyway proposal is not limited to "small motor vehicles", it is legally open to all motor vehicles. --Dieterdreist (talk) 22:21, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

• highway=motorpath : What advantage does it offer over path=* + path=motorpath ?
• highway=motorcycleway : This will be confused with dedicated purposed-built physical and legal motorcycle-only roads. Common in Taiwan, and found in Mayalsia. Often some are wide enough for cars.  Motorcycle_lane (ignore the "lane" as they are physically separate roadways, in the North American "lanes" meaning.)

—— Kovposch (talk) 08:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, dedicated motorcycle-only ways also exist in Thailand, so I may have to create a separate proposal for it. --julcnx (talk) 10:20, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

General confusion

From past experience, "alley" cause confusion with rear access, general narrow roads (that may still be wide enough for all cars), and your even smaller narrow roads here. "Alleyway" isn't much better. They should be avoided.
I too doubt whether a new highway=* is needed, or will work. You will have a catch-22 of people not wanting to use it before it's supported, and less willingness to support from lack of use. I suggest to simply use highway=path + path=* .
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:35, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I see these problems too. But the thing is that an alley, as proposed here, is a street. A path is not a street, IMHO. --Chris2map (talk) 08:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

My preference is to keep using highway=residential . But for the next best alternative seems to be highway=path . Trying to be physical with eg highway=narrow_road will have the opposite confusion with the wider, not-as-narrow roads.
A highway=footway can still be a "street". Address numbers can be assigned to it.
—— Kovposch (talk) 08:32, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

There are indeed thousands of residential highways in OpenStreetMap tagged with widths under 2m, and while formally they are described in their characteristics, practically they are represented very inappropriately and misleading. Having a proper class will solve it. —Dieterdreist (talk) 09:07, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, that was a bit bold from me ("A path is not a street"). But I personally wouldn't call a footpath a street, regardless of whether there are house numbers on it. For me, a street is one that can be used by the private vehicles that are common in the region. Of course, I can't rule out the possibility that there is a 10 m wide path in front of the house that is signposted as a footpath and cycle path. But I would say that is a rather special case. And even then I would find the term "street" difficult. – I think you're right that those alleyways are highway=residential, but at the same time, I think it is very important to be able to easily recognize when it is a narrow alley where restrictions are to be expected and where access should be planned carefully. Even purely visually on a map display, it is a great benefit for me. Actually, the physical width is what is responsible for this. But that is at least as problematic (recording is complex). I am not even sure about a solution yet. What about highway=residential_alley or highway=residential + residential=alleyway? --Chris2map (talk) 09:48, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

"The most practical approach for rendering and routing support is to introduce a single primary tag, like `highway=alleyway/narrow`, and optionally specify its function with a secondary tag, such as `alleyway=residential`. We want to avoid creating a whole new set of high-level tags for different functions (e.g., `residential_alley`, `service_alley`, `unclassified_alley`), as well as additional subtags like `residential=alley` or `unclassified=alley`. Another option could be to use a generic subtag like `alley=yes` or the existing `narrow=yes`, but this would likely lead to inconsistent and slow rendering support. On the flip side, a completely new tag might encourage renderers to display them since they would otherwise be hidden from maps. However, this isn’t a major issue, as most of these ways aren't part of the general public network." --julcnx (talk) 10:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)