Proposal talk:Contact line
Jump to navigation
Jump to search
Resolved: --reDoubleYou 21:58, 13 February 2025 (UTC)
Resolved: Every messenger wire is a messenger wire - wheather it is designed as sigle or double wire. One can use the proposed tags. If a feeder cable is attached to the catenary masts, it is not part of the catenary and can be mapped seperately as i. e. power=minor_line. --reDoubleYou 22:06, 13 February 2025 (UTC)
Comparison
Hi, I have thought this before too. There are some issues here, but you are welcomed to propose. Proposal:Transit energy source details
- contact_line=* :
contact_line=* is currently being used for related electrical features or attributes. While OpenRailwayMap/Tagging#Neutral_sections has railwaY=main_switch_off , it seems not very intuitive, and I personally don't like prefixing railway:*=* for everything. Aside from contact_line=phase_break , there are contact_line=section_break , contact_line=supply , and contact_line=system_change not covered, with OpenRailwayMap/Tagging#Joints railway:electricity=* looking confusing. Furthermore, these could be applied to trolleybus as well. Currently I have been using electrified:contact_line=* . It seems a better choice now.
- *=trolley-type , *=catenary : Single wire without catenary can be used by pantographs on low-speed. That's why I suggest electrified:collection=* to separately handle them.
- *=conductor_rail : Can be simplified to *=rail
- double_*_wire=* : It's not recommended to invent too many top-level
, and this format is not very scalable. File:Konpaunto_catenary.png shows the compound catenary where the catenary messenger wire supports a straight auxiliary / secondary messenger wire. https://ocw.tudelft.nl/course-readings/2-4-1-traction-systems/#section143 (CC By-NC-SA 4.0) illustrates stitched catenary connecting successive catenary spans.
- double_catenary_wire=* : Unfortunately, I don't have a good idea how to solve this yet
- double_contact_wire=* : Can reuse wires=* from power=line
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am by no means an expert in the inner-workings of these types of electrification, but my initial thought as well was to use electrified:contact_line=* for this. Seems this can be the overall for all electrification detail with sufficient subtags documented. Perhaps worth also adding to the discussion page on the overall electrified=*. -- GA Kevin (talk) 01:09, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- A note to add the tag electrified:contact_line=* already has 188 uses on Taginfo ( electrified:contact_line=*.)
-
- Thanks for the feddback! I like the idea to use electrified:contact_line as key --> I took it over to the proposal as well as the simplification of the value
electrified:contact_line=conductor_rail, now electrified:contact_line=rail. Thanks! - Talking about compound catenary systems, I've got the idea to clearify the system type by a new proposed tag. What do you think about the following tagging as clearification of electrified:contact_line=catenary?
- Thanks for the feddback! I like the idea to use electrified:contact_line as key --> I took it over to the proposal as well as the simplification of the value
- A note to add the tag electrified:contact_line=* already has 188 uses on Taginfo (
Key Value Description Photos catenary:type
catenarysimple simple catenary system with messenger wire and contact wire connected with dropper wires 
stiched catenary systems that consist in comparison to the "simple" system described above of additional Y-wires at catenary masts 
compound catenary systems that consist in comparison to the "stitched" system described above of additional auxiliary messenger wire 
-
- To avoid the tagging with double_*_wire=*, I had the idea for the following tagging, what do you think?
-
Key Value Description catenary:contact_wire double added, if the catenary system has a doubled contact wire catenary:auxiliary_wire double added, if the catenary system has a doubled auxiliary messenger wire - I've never heared about that, but we are prepared of that catenary:messenger_wire double added, if the catenary system has a doubled messenger wire
- I would not reuse wires=* from power=line becaus it is confusing and misleading. The conductors of a catenary system are connected in parallel, yes, but unlike high-voltage power lines, they have different functions. --reDoubleYou 20:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can agree to use something more specific than wires=* , but let's also ask @Fanfouer:
- The *:type=* suffix is meaningless and unspecific. Simply use catenary=*
- thanks for the advice, I changed it --reDoubleYou 20:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- electrified:contact_line=* can be renamed to eg electrified:contact_line=direct , where railway=tram may assumed to have trolley poles, and railway=rail pantographs. Unfortunately, what about trolley wires with a short partial "catenary" hanger at the poles only? File:Overhead line 011.JPG
- Which tag (or do you mean value?) would you like to rename? I would not differentiate between the usage of different pantographs or trolley poles. The tagging aims to map what type of over head contact line system is built. Thus I'd just tag electrified:contact_line=trolley-type for your described case trolley wires with a short partial "catenary" hanger at the poles only. --reDoubleYou 20:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm worried people will misunderstand electrified:contact_line=trolley-type means trolley poles are used, and it only applies to railway=tram —— Kovposch (talk) 08:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I read in the literatur - your described trolley wires with a short partial "catenary" hanger at the poles only isn't a separat typ of catenary, it is a type of suspensioning a trolley-type contact wire. There are differnt suspension types. I think this could be part of a new proposal, see Proposal:Contact_line_attachment, it could be line_attachment=stitch --reDoubleYou 22:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ok I didn't realize it can be differentiated by line_attachment=* —— Kovposch (talk) 08:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Which tag (or do you mean value?) would you like to rename? I would not differentiate between the usage of different pantographs or trolley poles. The tagging aims to map what type of over head contact line system is built. Thus I'd just tag electrified:contact_line=trolley-type for your described case trolley wires with a short partial "catenary" hanger at the poles only. --reDoubleYou 20:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- An example should be needed to explain to others it's possible to have catenary:contact_wire=single + catenary:messenger_wire=double , so it's not verbose File:Overhead line 007.JPG
- —— Kovposch (talk) 04:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would not reuse wires=* from power=line becaus it is confusing and misleading. The conductors of a catenary system are connected in parallel, yes, but unlike high-voltage power lines, they have different functions. --reDoubleYou 20:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Resolved: --reDoubleYou 21:58, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Dual-purpose
What should be used when the feeder wire act as the catenary, and there's no messenger wire? catenary:messenger_wire=feeder_wire + feeder_wire=* ?
- feeder_wire=single https://www.westjr.co.jp/company/action/env/eco/004/ https://www.westjr.co.jp/company/action/env/eco/004/img/004_01_p04.gif
- feeder_wire=double https://www.ntds.co.jp/projects/2609/ https://www.ntds.co.jp/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/bb53726dd4e505b4b7ea8670f4732ff6.png
- feeder_wire=single + catenary=compound https://www.rtri.or.jp/rd/division/rd44/rd4430/rd44300113.html https://www.rtri.or.jp/rd/division/rd44/rd4430/is5f1i0000000p7q-img/rd44300113_01.jpg
—— Kovposch (talk) 04:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did not get the point, what do you mean with the term feeder wire? --reDoubleYou 20:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- A parallel "traction feed" wire that helps supply electricity to the contact wire. In Japan, it is now often combined with the messenger wire to become a "feeder-messenger" wire, hanging and powering the contact wire at the same time. I can't find any proper English explanation.
- —— Kovposch (talk) 08:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh, actually the example photo is already a feeder-messenger twin wire. I didn't read the caption. Maybe all such double wire over single contact wire cases are feeder-messenger.
—— Kovposch (talk) 08:11, 17 January 2025 (UTC) - Forgot to emphasize I'm describing 1500Vdc. Maybe I confused you if referring to 25kVac.
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:40, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Resolved: Every messenger wire is a messenger wire - wheather it is designed as sigle or double wire. One can use the proposed tags. If a feeder cable is attached to the catenary masts, it is not part of the catenary and can be mapped seperately as i. e. power=minor_line. --reDoubleYou 22:06, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Damping
If you are interested, there's still a rare system of dampers being used as droppers. catenary=damped , or catenary:dampers=yes ?
—— Kovposch (talk) 05:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Resolved: I added catenary:muffled=yes. --reDoubleYou 22:16, 13 February 2025 (UTC)
More variations perhaps?
There are more detailed classifications in Japan after some research, maybe more variations in catenary=*?
- Direct (Trolley)
- Direct (Reversed-Y, Trolley)
- Simple
- Twin Simple
- Simple (Feeder messenger)
- Compound
- Compound (w/ hanger)
- Rigid overhead
© 川柳五七 Ina-Senryu
| Category | Type | Cross section | Applications | Examples | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Direct (Trolley) | (diagram) | (diagram) | Sidings <45km/h | ||
| Catenary | Simple | (diagram) | (diagram) | Sections <100km/h |  (CSa Simple) .jpg) (PHCb Simple) |
| Double Simple | (diagram) | (diagram) | Sections >100km/h or high electricity consumption | 
| |
| Compound | (diagram) | (diagram) | Sections >100km/h |  (Compound)  (Heavy-dutied) | |
| Altered Y-shaped (Stitched Catenary) | (diagram) | (diagram) | Sections >100km/h | 
| |
| Composite Compound | (diagram) | (diagram) | Shinkansen | 
| |
| Double Messenger | (diagram) | (diagram) | Sections w/ crosswind | 
| |
| Rigid Overhead | (diagram) | (diagram) | Underground & Tunnel | 
| |
|
©Nipponica, Shogakukan | |||||
-- Assanges (talk) 16:09, 22 March 2025 (UTC)
- References
- ↑ 1.0 1.1 電車の架線設備って何！？その２ - ３、吊架線とトロリー線 What are the electric railway overhead lines? (2) - 3. Catenary & Trolley lines from 川柳五七の電車のページ
- ↑ 2.0 2.1 2.2 JIS E2001:2002 Electric traction contact lines−Vocabulary via Kikakuri.com
- ↑ 架線(カセン)とは？ 意味や使い方 - コトバンク, Kotobank
- Please read the proposal, refer to above sections, and see the illustrated examples. I have already considered all of them, and reviewed with suggestions. Let me list them out.
- 直接吊架線
- 逆Y線
- Simple Catenary
- Twin Simple Catenary
- Double Messenger Simple Catenary
- "Composite" Compound Catenary
- Composite Catenary
- 剛体架線
—— Kovposch (talk) 16:24, 22 March 2025 (UTC)