Proposal talk:Graduation tower & brine source

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Tag Name

Salt / Evaporation tower

I'd suggest using a tag which was a little clearer to the non-initiate, something like salt_graduation_tower or saline_graduation_tower. Initially I thought this was something to do with universities, or an alternative name for a fractionation column. Ideally tags provide enough explanation to get a basic idea of what it is they are describing. SK53 (talk) 15:21, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

@SK53: I know that you don't have any graduation towers in English-speaking countries, but the name "graduation tower" seems to be the most common. Coolawik (talk) 10:55, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
As another native English speaking I was very confused when I saw the image of this, and the name. I too thought it was something to do with graduation from education. This could be a major source of confusion for mappers and data users. Amᵃᵖanda (talk) 11:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Can this be said as an "evaporation tower"? --- Kovposch (talk) 07:08, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@Kovposch: Like... the graduation tower used to be used primarily for the production of salt by evaporation, but now they are only used in medicine (as inhalation with the use of salt). Coolawik (talk) 10:55, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
You could say those are "evaporation tower" + product=salt, these being "evaporation tower" + "graduation"/"inhaling". --- Kovposch (talk) 06:17, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Those first are rather historic=*; noone use they're for this purpose now - it isn't productive. Coolawik (talk) 15:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I suggest man_made=evaporator – simple and clear. Something B wiki (talk) 09:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

The value name evaporator is even more general see pictures then the current voted evaporation_tower, thats why i like the more specific brine_concentration_tower or salt_concentration_tower see pictures --MalgiK (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd definitely go for something mentioning salt/brine, as it is awfully confusing without it, especially for non-English speakers. Perhaps brine_graduation_tower, which seems to be their full name anyway? --mnalis (talk) 19:15, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

man_made=* key is associated with one gender

This proposal is for a new tag, so you don't need to use the man_made=* key. You could choose another key. It (man_made) is associated with one gender. I suggest you use a different key. Since the thing is built, building=* might make sense, although I don't think you can go inside it. Or structure=*, but Key:structure only talks about power pylons. Amᵃᵖanda (talk) 11:21, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Don't "need", but using it allow any application supporting man_made=* to recognize it generically. I'm more opposed to mixing everything in man_made=*, and worsening the bloat. At the same time, this is a general issue. Asking proposers of specific ideas to find a better tag within the entire database may be an undue burden.
The first 2 examples of building=yes look more of a piece of equipment covered=yes with building=roof on top. They aren't integrated and enclosed, compared to the case of building=disgester (that I don't like).
structure=* is nice and descriptive. Unfortunately as you pointed out, it is currently used as attribute for power=tower, not a feature. Changing this require more effort. (For completeness's sake, structure=* won't able to replace every man_made=* either, Contrary to wording in Key:man_made, some are facilities, land modifications, or even human activity/presence/service (the strange man_made=surveillance + surveillance:type=guard).
--- Kovposch (talk) 06:41, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
artifical=salt_graduation_tower solves 2 issues (man_made & suprising use of “graduation”) Amᵃᵖanda (talk) 08:49, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
That doesn't solve the issue of mixing different categories in man_made=* as a replacement. Slightly less worse is amenity=*, cf amenity=mist_spraying_cooler. --- Kovposch (talk) 06:06, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

man_made=* is general key for man made structures. IMHO, it is suitable for evaporator. Something B wiki (talk) 08:59, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Finishing the issue of tag name

So: after discussion about changing the tag name (couse graduation towers do not exist in English-language countries and the name is not known) we got to know a few suggestions:

  1. man_made=graduation_tower
  2. man_made=salt_graduation_tower
  3. artifical=salt_graduation_tower
  4. man_made=evaporation_tower
  5. man_made=evaporator

Which one would you all agree on? @Kovposch, Something B wiki, Amᵃᵖanda, and SK53:. Coolawik (talk) 16:53, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I prefer man_made=evaporator Something B (talk) 22:11, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
The discussion of artificial=* vs man_made=* is generic & not relevant to this proposal. I think we still need to keep the notion of a tower, so I'd favour man_made=evaporation_tower. A generic tag for evaporator could equally apply to salt pans and other low tech ways of making salt. SK53 (talk) 11:54, 29 September 2022 (UTC)


Resolved: Tag was changed to man_made=evaporation_tower as the most clear name for it. Coolawik (talk) 16:38, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Second tag changing

After bringing up other issues during the vote, I resumed the discussion of the name of the main tag. Result: return to man_made=graduation_tower. Full discussion can be viewed on the OpenStreetMap Community.

As noted in the discussion, there was equal number of people for man_made=graduation_tower as there were against it. --mnalis (talk) 20:41, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
But... some people were against the graduation tower, and some people were against evaporation_tower, brine_graduation_tower, or salt_concentration_tower. After 3 months of discussion, I understood there is no chance that everyone will be satisfied with their choice. It is also not a matter of a global tag and it will probably be properly used only in Poland, Germany and rarely in other countries as it was before the conversation. In the end, I've decided to revert to the official name as the most frequently chosen and most common name on the Internet. Coolawik (talk) 17:54, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Brine

origin=* is quite disorganized and unclear, for use on shop=*. You could use something similar to water_source=*. --- Kovposch (talk) 06:20, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

@Kovposch: brine_source=*? Coolawik (talk) 15:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Can you make up an example how it is to be used? Type or freeform text name? You haven't used it for the photos listed. Something I didn't like in water_source=* is potentially having a *_source=* for everything. (Unfortunately affected by source:*=* although *:source=* is less standard)
Is it possible some brine are sourced separately to be mixed on site? Then you would need water_source=* + eg salt_source=*.
--- Kovposch (talk) 06:00, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Resolved: I added an example to article. eg. this graduation tower have a brine from Zabłocie (there's a board which tells about it: Link to brine source board in Polish) Coolawik (talk) 16:15, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Redundancy, conflict, or separate object

The combination building=* + covered=* doesn't make much sense. It is either a structure itself, or be covered under something else. As compared in Talk:Proposed_features/man_made=graduation_tower#202209120641_Kovposch, they might actually be two different features that should be represented individual objects. --- Kovposch (talk) 06:50, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Resolved: covered=* is deleted from article. Coolawik (talk) 15:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Proposal for easier demonstrate to introduce of more than one new tag within a prososal page

Option 1) using the key prarmeter line, | key = man_made=evaporation_tower, brine_source=* see example: 

{{Proposal Page
| name = Proposal for man_made=evaporation tower and brine source
| user = Coolawik
| key = man_made=evaporation_tower, brine_source=*
| type = {{IconNode}}, {{IconArea}}
| definition = evaporation/graduation tower (btw. should be a description text, more then just the value name)
}}

See also another example where many new keys were introduced: Proposed_features/Advanced_cycle_barrier_tagging

Option 2) using a table of 2 templates 


{|
| {{Proposal Page
| name = Proposal for man_made=evaporation tower and brine source
| user = Coolawik
| key = man_made
| value = evaporation_tower
| type = {{IconNode}}, {{IconArea}}
| definition = evaporation/graduation tower (btw. should be a description text, more then just the value name)
}} 
|| {{Proposal Page
| name = Proposal for man_made=evaporation tower and brine source
| user = Coolawik
| key = brine_source
| value = 
| type = {{IconNode}}, {{IconArea}}
| definition = The origin of the brine in the graduation tower. (the place where the brine is extracted) 
}}
|}
Resolved: I've added the second discussed tag to the infobox. Coolawik (talk) 09:03, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Comments from cancelled voting page

Full content on: Proposed features/man made=evaporation tower

  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Coolawik (talk) 17:47, 20 October 2022 (UTC) - nothing to change. Coolawik (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. I see no problems with this proposal (though not entirely sure is it better than man_made=graduation_tower given that it is its technical name and it is already in use, I would also support proposal for man_made=graduation_tower, but I also see benefit of more understandable name...) --Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2022 (UTC) - nothing to change. Coolawik (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --123kwiatek (talk) 18:34, 20 October 2022 (UTC) - nothing to change. Coolawik (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. -- Something B (talk) 19:29, 20 October 2022 (UTC) - nothing to change. Coolawik (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. Marc marc (talk) 20:03, 20 October 2022 (UTC) man_made=graduation_tower exist, documented, term used by WP, I see no value to switch it to a "osm specific terme" again, the hudge list of additional tag that already exist is also not a good think. are we voting onn those tags too ? what's if the proposal fail, lit become=* reject ? brine_source=* is also not ideal, the description itself talks about origin and there is only one example of this key, so the meaning is not obvious to guess, is it the place? if so it's look like a duplicate of origin=*. if not, more info is needed Marc marc (talk) 20:03, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
That is a good question - what is the role of this "addtional tags" section? Are there also getting approved in this proposal? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 20:26, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, the proposal's content have been listed in Proposed_features/man_made=evaporation_tower#Features/Pages_affected. --- Kovposch (talk) 20:47, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
It's not the same. This is freeform text. origin=* is pre-defined list of nations for products sold. It's not clear how to distinguish cultural origin, design origin, brand origin, and manufacturing origin, etc either. --- Kovposch (talk) 20:47, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
but you can't change the content during a vote. so please stop the vote, made your changes and start a RFC again to see if someone have comment. Marc marc (talk) 21:55, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Resolved
@Marc marc and Chris66: 1) changed to man_made=graduation_tower 2) I've changed the table format to be more readable. It lists important or optional tags that may be combined with man_made=evaporation_tower. 3) as Kovposch said "origin=* is pre-defined list of nations for products sold". But brine_souce= is for the place from which the brine is extracted. Coolawik (talk) 17:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
  • I abstain from voting but have comments I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. 1. It tries to approve badly defined brine_source. 2. It suggests that place around tower should be tagged as landuse=recreation_ground --Maraf (talk) 20:29, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Resolved: * @Rafmar: landuse=recreation_ground has been removed. Coolawik (talk) 21:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC). @Rafmar: And the definition of brine_source has been fixed. Coolawik (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Resolved: @Kovposch: landuse=recreation_ground has been removed. Coolawik (talk) 21:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. IMHO it is generally right to put specific towers in the main man_made=* tag space. There are some nitpicks, like why would you add a generic building=yes if you already know the specific building type, but this is not preventing approval. Not sure which term is better (graduation towet) --Dieterdreist (talk) 21:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Resolved: Tag building=yes as optional. Coolawik (talk) 09:09, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. - Beside i propose to improve the naming (if graduation is too misleading), there are some issues: 1) man_made=evaporation_tower seems too general, i could imaging man_made=brine_concentration_tower 2) i would not mix more then one new tag (here you can find a bit hidden the brine_source=*), if it is not stated in top grey infobox 3) there is no spelled out term for definition in the grey box (only "evaporation/graduation tower") --MalgiK (talk) 00:36, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
@MalgiK: 1) but I've changed the main tag once, because man_made=graduation_tower was too confusing. If someone doesn't know what the evaporation tower is, he won't be looking for it or adding it to OSM. 2) the issue of the brine's origin is strictly related to the evaporation tower and can be only used with this place. 3) Besides, I can't add more than one tag to the infobox template. Coolawik (talk) 16:07, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
@Coolawik:
Regarding the content & 1) so you talk about the change from value graduation_tower to evaporation_tower on the talk page? As said, your Proposal text "... are structures used in the production of salt which remove water from a saline solution by evaporation, increasing its concentration of mineral salts." and your (btw. nice) example pictures pointing to quite specific units which are deal with production of salt, in contrast to that is the proposed wording evaporation_tower which sounds like an unit which using a general technology of the evaporation.
Regaring the format & 3) you are right the parameters of template {{Proposal Page}} are not so good suitable for using more than one tag. As a workaround (you might use) i did add two options to the talk page, see: Talk:Proposed_features/man_made=evaporation_tower#Proposal for easier demonstrate to introduce of more than one new tag within a prososal page
Resolved: @MalgiK: format changed.
Regarding the content & new 4) As here stated ("there's no graduation towers in English-speaking countrys") misleading wording "graduation tower" came from wikipedia (even this wikipedia term & article was indrotuced from an (en) native speaker: see: [1] & [2]). I'm not native en, but why if the term is misleading, do you use it in this table 8 times as description texts? --MalgiK (talk) 21:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
After some more investigation i prefer finally the value name salt_concentration_tower see pictures instead of brine_concentration_tower mentioned above earlier. --MalgiK (talk) 21:49, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
@MalgiK: I've added last voting for main tag name to OpenStreetMap Community. Please vote on: https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/tagging-proposal-salt-concentration-evaporation-graduation-tower/4481 . Coolawik (talk) 11:42, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Resolved
Changed to man_made=graduation_tower after discussion. It has won. --Coolawik (talk) 17:56, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. Although I think "evaporation tower" is a better term than "graduation tower", I think this better fits as a tower:type=* tag. I also don't support the use of tourism=attraction and brine_source=*; tourism=attraction without further specification only means "people come here to look at it" which isn't valuable in a cartographic sense, and brine_source=* is some obscure tag that IMO should be proposed separately. --501ghost (talk) 08:28, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
It's not a man_made=tower. Eg to the extreme, a computer tower can't use that either. So I find that this is allowable. tower:type=* itself has its own problems.--- Kovposch (talk) 11:19, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
@501ghost: 1. When we read a definition of man_made=tower ("A tower is a free-standing structure which is higher than it is wide.") and we see photos of evaporation towers in examples, we see that it is not higher than wider. And next: "A tower provides platforms", but we cannot climb the graduation tower. 2. About tourism=attraction: an article about this tag tells us that it is used "to indicate that the item is interesting for tourists". Modern evaporation towers are created for this very purpose. So that tourists or residents can sit / walk around them and heal themselves in this way. 3. I will repeat: the issue of the brine's origin (brine_source=*) is strictly related to the evaporation tower and can be only used with this place. Coolawik (talk) 16:31, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm willing to retract my statement about man_made=tower, but I find tourism=attraction still to vague to support. People travel to all countries and cities for tourism but we're not tagging the countries and cities with this tag either (I hope). brine_source=* can be used under the ATYL guideline but I'm not going to approve it in this proposal. --501ghost (talk) 19:10, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Resolved: @501ghost: I've changed table of additional tags to more clearly version. Now tourism=attraction is optional, so we don't have to use it. But for example evaporation tower in Ciechocinek is the only place people in Poland associate this city with, and the only attraction they go there for. Coolawik (talk) 20:39, 21 October 2022 (UTC). And the definition of brine_source has been fixed. Coolawik (talk) 11:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. same critics as Marc marc --chris66 (talk) 08:51, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Resolved
@Marc marc and Chris66: 1) changed to man_made=graduation_tower 2) I've changed the table format to be more readable. It lists important or optional tags that may be combined with man_made=evaporation_tower. 3) as Kovposch said "origin=* is pre-defined list of nations for products sold". But brine_souce= is for the place from which the brine is extracted. Coolawik (talk) 17:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --NieWnen (talk) 16:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC) - nothing to change. Coolawik (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
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